quote:

We are looking forward to see(ing) them.

I always want to say "seeing" but is that correct? Or is there a better way to say this (We look forward to see(ing) them? Suggestions welcome.

DD
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01-27-04, 12:00 PM
cattywampus
"Seeing" is correct. It goes with "looking." Or it might be stated "I look forward to seeing them." See is present tense, as in "I see her now," "I see you have forgotten your backpack."

Catty Cool
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01-27-04, 12:22 PM
Georgia85
Catty, I thought "seeing" was a conjuction and meant "taking into account" and usually is followed by "that".
example: She survived the fall, seeing that the odds were against her.

I did note on Merriam Webster that "seeing" is an inflected form of the verb "see" but I do not know if using it in the above post would be considered proper grammar.

Donadiana, you could also say "I look forward to visiting with them"
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01-27-04, 12:58 PM
cattywampus
Georgia, your example is one of the reasons learning English is so hard. "Seeing" in this instance is actually used improperly, as you don't actually "see" that the odds are against her unless you're actually looking it up. You could use "since" or replace the word with a dash, a semi-colon or colon or make two sentences. We need Miaku to tell us why, but it certainly isn't correct to say "I look forward to see her," unless by "forward" you mean "in front of me."

Hope this clears things up but...?

Catty Wink
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01-27-04, 01:40 PM
doñadiana
I think I am treating "to see" as an infinitive. Is this my mistake? Obviously I didn't pay enough attention to grammar when I was in school.

DD
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01-27-04, 01:52 PM
newnickname
Yes, the mistake lies in thinking of 'to see' as an infinitive here. It isn't. 'Look forward to' is a three-part phrasal verb. 'To' in this case is a preposition, and must be followed by a noun of some kind. 'Seeing' is correct, therefore.

I want to see you. (Infinitive)

I'm accustomed to seeing you. (Preposition + gerund)
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01-27-04, 01:53 PM
maiku
The only correct form for your sentence, doñadiana, is seeing, and it has nothing to do with agreeing with the other form, looking. We could say either

(1) I am looking forward to seeing you, or

(2)I look forward to seeing you

The word to can be either a genuine preposition, or it can be just a grammatical marker of an infinitive, as in sentences like

(3) I'd like to see that again
(4) I'm happy to meet you

and so on. Catty's example was interesting. To clarify the point, maybe these other examples will be helpful. Compare

(5) I'm looking forward to seeing the play, and

(6) I leaned forward (in order) to see the play

.

In (6), as in (3) and (4), to is merely the marker of the infinitive verb; it is not a preposition, as it is in (1), (2), and (5).

The form seeing is a so-called gerund, and though it derives from the verb, it is actually being used much as a noun would be. That is why it can be the object of a preposition. I'm looking forward to something. What? Seeing that again. The to phrases of (3), (4) and (6) are not functioning at all like nouns (or noun phrases), which is why it would be inappropriate to say

I'd like to something
I'm happy to something, or
I leaned forward to something.

Hope this helps.
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01-27-04, 01:56 PM
Georgia85
"To see" would be the infinitive form of the verb. Using the word "seeing" would be appropriate if it were used to represent past tense as in "I have been seeing a doctor".

I don't know if this has helped any. Maiku is better equiped to answer grammar questions than I.
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01-27-04, 01:59 PM
doñadiana
Thank you Catty, Georgia,newnickname, and Maiku. Now I can say "seeing" without feeling guilty. I had this irresistible urge to say (write) " I look forward to seeing...." but I was afraid it was wrong. Thank you, all, for your answers.

DD

[This message was edited by doñadiana on 01-27-04 at 02:12 PM.]
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01-27-04, 02:17 PM
cattywampus
You are right, Maiku, which is why we keep you around. My connection was feeble, at best. Nevertheless, I said basically what you said. Glad you're still here to confirm what we all expected.

Three cheers for Maiku - HIP HIP!

Catty Big Grin
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01-27-04, 02:22 PM
Georgia85
And here I thought I was doing pretty good. I was even referring to "The Written Word II" handbook I have at my desk. Roll Eyes
Well, glad Maiku was around to straighten us out.
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01-27-04, 02:23 PM
cattywampus
By golly, newnick, that is exactly what I wanted to say. A gerund calls for another gerund,
only not always - "Peeking around the corner, I saw..."

Catty Big Grin
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01-27-04, 11:57 PM
Tree
We look forward to see them.

or

We are looking forward to seeing them.

Therefore: look and see - or - looking and seeing.
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01-28-04, 01:22 AM
newnickname
Er... no.

One more time:

'To' is sometimes a preposition. Prepositions are words like 'up', 'on', 'over', 'towards' and so on.

Prepositions must be followed by some kind of noun. Usually, they show the relationship between two things. Prepositions can be followed by a noun phrase, a gerund, a pronoun or a noun clause. They can't be followed by a verb.

Confusingly, 'to' is also sometimes part of an infinitive. 'To see' is an infinitive. In this case, we do have the word 'to' followed by a verb. But it's a different 'to'. Yes, I know it looks exactly the same, but it's different.

Some verbs can be followed by infinitives. For example: I want to see you. Prepositions can be followed by gerunds. For example: I am accustomed to seeing you. In the first sentence, 'to' is part of an infinitive, and in the second sentence 'to' is a preposition.

The 'to' in 'look forward to' is a preposition. It just is. 'Look forward to' is a three-word verb. We say We look forward to seeing you.

It is possible to say 'I look forward'. It's a liitle strange to say 'I look forward', because that's the direction most people look anyway, but you can say it.

Then, if you like, you can use an 'infinitive of purpose'. An 'infinitive of purpose' is a phrase with an infinitive which is tacked onto a clause to answer the question 'why?'. For example: I went to school. Why? I went to school to study grammar. This inifinitive is a kind of short hand for 'in order to...'.

So, you could, in some strange circumstance, say, "I look forward (in order) to see you.".

But all that has nothing to do with 'gerund and gerund'. You must be thinking of 'parallel structure'. For example: I'm sitting here, crying and singing the blues.
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01-28-04, 11:02 AM
cattywampus
Oh for Pete's sake. I wasn't making a new rule, just offering an aid to help her remember.

If it's axiomatic that we always look forward, then even if we look backward to see somebody, we're still looking forward as our face is turned that way. Leaving out "in order to" in that sentence may be technically correct but it makes everybody concerned look stupid.

Catty Smile
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01-28-04, 02:04 PM
newnickname
The rule is simple. After a preposition, you need to use a noun of some kind. The confusion lies in the multiple meanings of 'to'.

In "I'm fed up with studying grammar'", it's clear that "with" is a preposition, and is followed by a gerund. "Fed up with" has the same structure as "look forward to". 'With' and 'to' are prepositions in these phrasal verbs.

The 'infinitive of purpose' thing is just an example of another grammar rule where we might see 'look forward to see'. In the same way, there is yet another structure - 'too' + adjective + infinitive - which could give us "I'm too fed up to study". This is 'fed up' followed by an infinitive. 'To' is not a preposition in that case.

Leaving out 'in order' in a sentence which contains an infinitive of purpose is very common. No one looks stupid doing it. We do it (in order) to save time, I guess.

(Imagine one of those tandems built for three people. 'Tridem'? Anyway, if I was sitting on the middle saddle, and you were at the front, I would say, "I look behind to see him, but I look forward to see you." The problem is that youwould then say, "Huh? Well. of course. What are you talking about? You sound like a grammar example.") Smile

This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,