How did it get it's name and where did it begin. Ankyouthay. ************************************** 08-12-02, 09:45 PM referenth It's a children's language game, so the origins are murky. The name "Pig Latin" probably means it's vulgar like pigs (according to the Encarta World English Dictionary ) and hard to understand like Latin (back when kids had to learn Latin).
Merriam-Webster gives the date of the word itself as 1931.
Hope that helps.
Does anyone know any words besides "ixnay" (nix) and "amscray" (scram) that have been "borrowed" into English?
08-13-02, 04:20 AM chanceygardner 'nix' is NOT an English word...it's an American word. (Actually it comes from the German 'nichts') wink
08-13-02, 05:50 AM Monsterquizzer 'Nicks' (sic) - whilst certainly of German origin - was in use meaning 'nothing' as long ago as the 1780s in Britain. As the USA was but a teenager at the time, I very much doubt whether it was created there!
08-13-02, 05:57 AM chanceygardner Monster....how many people in Britain use the word 'nix' or 'nicks'?
08-13-02, 05:13 PM DorianGreyed I think that some of you are missing the thrust of the question. The original question asked, as I understand it, if there were any other words, other than the two examples given, that have been borrowed into English. The words that were given as examples are 'ixnay' and 'amscray.' LVLF didn't say that 'nix' and 'scram' were borrowed, but the pig Latin versions of them were. In that, he (she?) is correct, in my opinion. Both 'ixnay' and 'amscray' are at least understood by most adult American speakers of English.
08-14-02, 04:55 AM Monsterquizzer Chancey, In my (lengthy) lifetime, I've never once heard a British person say 'nix'. However, British writers - eg Conan Doyle in the twenties - were using it as late as the 1950s. (The 'nix' rather than 'nicks' form appeared here in the early 1800s.) That it is not used now does not alter the fact that, at one time, it was in common use here as slang for 'nothing'. I'll certainly agree with you that it's an American-English word, in terms of current usage but - as a corruption from German - it's a much older British-English word. Cheers.
08-14-02, 05:01 PM referenth
quote:Originally posted by Monsterquizzer: In my (lengthy) lifetime, I've never once _heard_ a British person say 'nix'.
I've never heard anyone in America say " nix " for "nothing" (despite its origin in German nichts, or German dialect nix) but you do hear it and see it as a verb for "refuse" or "veto" (to nix an idea).
I only remember "speaking" pig Latin once in my childhood, but I think I've heard the playful "ixnay" in English sentences almost as much as I've heard "nix." A few years back, Homer Simpson code-mixed "Ixnay on the ig-pay atin-Lay."
Does anyone have any more information to answer LVLF's original question "How did [pig Latin] get it's name and where did it begin"?
08-15-02, 05:38 AM Monsterquizzer The earliest-recorded written use of the phrase appeared in a story by R Chandler in 'Dime Detective Magazine' in 1937. F Scott Fitzgerald used it in a letter the following year. Pretty clearly, it's American English and - equally obviously - it must have existed in speech in the USA prior to that date. 'Pig' is a word often applied in a derogatory way...eg the phrase 'a pig's breakfast' means a fouled-up situation or something generally messed-around-with. Pig Latin is just a specific way of "messing around with" language. However, why it isn't just called 'Pig English' I'm not sure. 'Dog Latin - in much the same way as 'a dog's breakfast', which is commoner than a pig's one in Britain - was used as long ago as the 18th century, so perhaps it's just a variation on that.
08-15-02, 01:27 PM maiku I'd like to point out that the German version of this "code" language is also called pig Latin (Schwein Latein). The rules for "encoding" may be slightly different; I'm not sure, but not much different, as I remember.
It could be that the German name is a loan translation from English, or it could be the reverse. In any case, Kati may be able to enlighten us some on the subject by reporting on when the oldest speakers of German she knows of first heard of it. I suspect it has been around a lot longer than 1937, and that
08-16-02, 02:57 AM Monsterquizzer Idntday Iay ustjay aysay atthay? (Here endeth the swinishness as far as I am concerned!)
08-16-02, 10:05 AM maiku In point of fact, MQ, you never mentioned German at all. That pig Latin is called the same thing in both English and German is an interesting fact that has bearing on the origin of the term. If it is a loan translation from German (and I'm not insisting that it is) then we'd have to look past Raymond Chandler and F. Scott Fitzgerald, wouldn't we?
I'm still waiting to hear from somebody who's in a position to ask a really old native speaker of German about the term.
What's with you, MQ? Shouldn't you make some effort to see what my point is before gratuitously pouncing?
08-16-02, 07:37 PM LVLF Thanks for all the great answers. I had loads of fun when I was a kid thinking I that my parents couldn't understand me when I smarted off to them in pig Latin. Turns out I was probably wrong. wink
08-17-02, 06:06 AM Monsterquizzer What's with me, Maiku? The "Force", perhaps? Of course I didn't mention German...I always leave that to you...I was referring only to what your Germanic pig Latin says (as I understand it). Namely, that pig Latin was most probably spoken before 1937. You try grasping what I say...specifically what I wrote in the last sentence of the first paragraph of my earlier response. If that doesn't say precisely the same thing as you later said, I can't imagine what would. (Of course, it's some time since I studied German, so I could have got your meaning wrong, I suppose.) In other words, my pig Latin reply was in direct response to yours, not to anything you wrote in English. I'm astonished that you didn't grasp the connection. Incidentally, I graduated over 40 years ago, so I really don't need my every response here at AnswerPool to be 'corrected' by a professor.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
