So, did 'blue notes' originate with the blues? If so, where had they been hiding? Can you hear them, unidentified as such but expressing the same emotions, in classical music?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,

It's a little tough to answer but I'll give it a shot.The blue notes have always been there as two of the three of them are important parts of specific chords.The flat3rd is the note that identifies the chord as a minor chord.The flat 7th identifies the chord as a dominant 7th chord.The flat5th is usually only found in a minor
7th flat 5 chord.
Minor chords and dominant 7th chords are found in all kinds of music including classical.The minor 7th flat 5 chord is peculiar only to jazz .
So much for musical basics.However the blacks used these same notes because they heard notes which are not part of any Western scale.
For example,in the key of C the chords used are C7,F7 and G7.
A C7 chord consists of the notes C,E,G,and Bb.
What the blacks heard or felt was a note halfway between E[the 3rd] and Eb.So they would play E on the guitar BUT WOULD SING Eb !!! The E being played against the Eb is what gives the blues it's unique sound.
The flat 5[Gb] would be used against the G, while the flat 7th is an actual part of the original chord,a dominant 7th whose function is to continue to the next chord a fourth above.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the blacks had a musical scale that could not be played on a piano without striking both the 3rd and flatted 3rd and or the 5th and the flatted 5th at the same time.Jazz piano players have been doing this for years by playing the 3rd an octave lower than th flatted 3rd[rather than playing them right next to each other].As it is,the result is a dissonant sound or bluesy sound.
It's a sound that takes some getting used to... but as any jazz or blues lover will tell you,you'll love the sound when your ears get used to it.It's a very unique sound.
I hope this has helped somewhat.If it's still confusing drop me another line with your question.

An excellent answer; hope you got an acknowledgement!

This singing & playing of the natural 3rd & the flattened third simultaneously is very interesting. I think a lot of the individuality of a performer is the degree of 'balance' between these notes. If the artist plays the natural 3rd relatively loudly and sings the flattened third comparatively quietly, the effect is gentle and wistful. If the balance is reversed, the colour is darker and gloomier. And the degree of flattening the sung 3rd also has a great effect on the angle of the emotion; from light to very dark. And within these parameters there are infinite degrees of shading. These, apparently tiny variations of emphasis are what give songs, artists, Blues & Jazz an unmistakeable 'fingerprint', and are the identifying factors separating one performer from another. Of course, the treatment of the 5th, as you say is critical in the same way, but perhaps not quite to the same degree. As you say, your describing of a note that doesn't exist in a standard scale is perfect; and its unique capacity to vary in pitch means that it has to be copied aurally, and cannot be written down satisfactorily. The system of tadpoles strewn along a five-strand barbed-wire fence only works up to a point!

Newnickname; Where these "blue" notes occur in classical music there is nearly always an unmistakeable 'jazzy' feel to the music. Although Gershwin is often credited with being the first to incorporate 'blue' notes into serious compositions, it was being done far earlier, generally (not surprisingly) by American composers, albeit sporadically and infrequently. The earliest example of a 'blue' note which I can think of is (in my opinion) right at the very end of the Grieg Piano Concerto; the G# becoming a triumphant G natural is a real shock; check it out!
Cheers!

[This message was edited by Ritzmar on 08-30-02 at 03:59 AM.]

-Just played the waltz in B minor by Chopin. Bar 50 (if by any chance you might have it?!) is a fascinating example of a cross between False Relation and a 'blue' note; r.h. A# moves up a diminished 8ve to A natural; what do you think? Is it the earliest example yet of 'Blues'?!

for responding to my post about blue notes,although it's suprising that a longhair would respond rather than a jazz lover
I must confess that I really don't listen to much classical music.It's not that I don't enjoy it when I do hear it;I just don't seek it out.
I think the reason I spend most of my time listening to jazz comes down to 2 reasons.1.To me there are so many different types of jazz and so many emotional moods are expressed in each of them.
2.But the prime reason I listen to jazz is for the improvisation aspect of the music.As you well know Classical music is all written down and the only change that occurs is due to the talent of the conductor and the quality and skill of the musicians in the orchestra.
But jazz ,to me ,is spontaneous composition as the various soloists improvise over the chord changes in the tune being played.No two solists will approach the chord changes in the same way or style.Some play blueiser then others,some swing more than others,some have uncanny technique,some play earthier than others,some swing in a happy way while others [usually from the East Coast]sound harder and angrier.
Some[usually keyboard players or guitarists]employ an entirely new set of chord changes[or substitute chords ] when they play.Some use a lot of chromatic notes or changes,while others stick pretty close to using arpeggios of the original chord changes to a tune.
In short,the jazz players never seem to run out of different and fresh ways to improvise over the chord changes to the blues or the I,VI,II,V changes to "I got rhythm".
Good to hear from you.

I also teach jazz piano as well as classical piano; but, much as I enjoy jazz, I only feel that I know a fraction of the repertoire by comparison. Interestingly, a (very much older!) friend of mine from Denver used to go to see Art Tatum whenever he could; and Vladimir Horowitz whenever he could! And these two were great friends who admired each other very much. When Horowitz heard Tatum play his astonishing arrangement of "Tea For Two" he asked him, "How long did it take you to learn that?" Tatum, perplexed, said; "I didn't; I just made it up"! So as you can imagine, my friend (Bob) and I have lots to discuss when we meet up. Nice to exchange ideas with you; cheers!

To anyone reading this thread who may be interested, Peter Nero does some very interesting and intelligent things with classical pieces oriented into a jazz style; check him out!

For a great many years Art Tatum played in Cleveland,Ohio,where I lived at the time.I'll never forget the first time I heard Tatum in person,I was completely blown away by his incredible technique...and to top it off Tatum was legally blind.I went back to hear him the very next night and found ,to my astonishment,that Tatum played every tune he had played the night before ...in exactly the same way...note for note.
I found out later that Tatum would work out an arrangement in the best fashion that he could conceive for each tune and then play it exactly the same way each time ,because he believed that this was the very best way that the tune could be played ,although he never really put these arrangements down on paper.
In fact one of the writers for the now defunct Jazz magazine[his last name was Pease],
"Downbeat",could not even properly notate some of Tatum's incredibly fast runs.He would write something like "13 notes for this measure" and then he would write out the notes,but he couldn't write the correct time for that particular measure.
Incidently,a countryman of yours,George Shearing,also uses the same method of playing each tune in that he also works out each tune and then plays it exactly the same way each time.He has what they call perfect recall of each tune that he plays.
I'm inclined to believe that both took this approach to their playing because they are both blind.At the height of Shearing's popularity with his quintet,there is a story that one night Bud Powell walked up to the bandstand at Birdland...waved his hands in front of Shearing's face and angrily proclaimed,"This m*****-f*****'s not really blind!'

Yes; I too have heard, from another source that Art would play the same arrangement, note for note in his performances. (You're giving your age away, Hippo!)

Ain't but a few of us left!But I'll still be swinging as long as these hands can strum a guitar.
Jazz will only die when the young ones stop learning from the oldtimers.So far I don't see that happening ,although there seem to be fewer venues for jazz to be heard.
Even the kids like it[when they get a rare chance to hear it].
Ever notice ,when you do find a jazz station on the radio...it's always a weak signal station...while the Rock stations always seem to get all of the powerful signal stations.
Coincidence or conspiracy???Seems like the boys who assign the radio frequencies are in the pocket of the Rock&Rollers.
But there's still hope,Just Jazz Guitar magazine still publishes a lot of good stuff about Jazz Guitar...especially the new,young players...but it also does great interviews and examples of music by the older jazz guitarists who are still around.

I live in the UK as you know; and as you also know like a wide range of music, including rock. However, have to agree about radio signals. The main classical music station is the first one to weaken when travelling the road, followed by the jazz station. Rock? Can't lose the signal however you try!

Bad news for Jazz in the St. Louis Area. The Local Jazz station, WSIE, from the campus of Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville, has one day left with live DJs. The station is changing to a syndicated, national, recorded program. It is a shame, because one of the DJs, Ross Gentille, did a great deal for Jazz in the areas, getting big names to play some small venues, and do some really small clinics. My son was lucky enough to attend a clinic by Bill Watrous, the premier Jazz trombonist today, and one of the best Jazz Trombonist ever. I got to see Mikail (Arcadion in here) solo with Watrous and Carl Fontana, another Jazz legend. (I think it cost $10, so no one was doing it for the money.)
Another of the DJs losing his job, apparently, is 80+ year-old Buddy Moreno, who was a drummer with several of the Big Bands in the 40s. Moreno is still hip enough to be funny, topical, and he has stories of everyone in Big Bands, most of which he can't tell on radio.

* By the way, Watrous told me that "The kid (Mikail) has a great ear, and excellent taste."

ForDoriangreyed:
If your son was able to study with Bill Watrous...he was studying with the VERY best.Watrous is to the trombone what Oscar Peterson is to the piano...light years ahead of the rest of the pack! And Carl Fontana is no slouch either.Good luck to your son...we need all the young jazzers we can muster.

Hippolips, as always, you are a delight...we need you!