Thanks!! ****************************************************************** 04-19-05, 06:56 PM frankvan Karol Jozef Wojtyla was his real name, John Paul II No, no non-whites have been elected Pope to date. Pope Celestine III at age 85, in 1191 was oldest. Pope Pius IX at 44 in 1846 was the youngest.
04-19-05, 07:38 PM bedstor I beg to differ on Black Popes check this link out
There were three African Popes who came from the region of North Africa. Although there are no authentic portraits of these popes, there are drawings and references in the Catholic Encyclopedia as to their being of African background. The names of the Three African Popes are: Victor (183-203 A.D.), Gelasius (492-496 A.D.), and Mechiades or Militiades (311-314 A.D.). All are saints.
Pope Saint Victor 1
Saint Victor was born in Africa and bore a Latin name as most African did at that time. Saint Victor was the fifteenth pope and a native of black Africa. He served from 186 A.D. until 197 A.D. He served during the reign of Emperor Septimus Severus, also African, who had led Roman legions in Britain. Some of the known contributions of Victor were his reaffirming the holy feast of Easter to be held on Sunday as Pius has done. As a matter of fact, he called Theophilous, Bishop of Alexandria, on the carpet for not doing this. He also condemned and excommunicated Theodore of Byzantium because of the denial of the divinity of Jesus Christ. He added acolytes to the attendance of the clergy. He was crowned with martyrdom. He was pope for ten years, two months and ten days. He was buried near the body of the apostle Peter, the first pope in Vatican. Some reports relate that St. Victor died in 198 A.D. of natural causes. Other accounts stated he suffered martyrdom under Servus. He is buried in St. Peter's Basilica in Vatican City near the "Convessio."
Pope Saint Victor 1 feast day is July 28th.
Pope Saint Gelasius 1
Saint Gelasius was born in Rome of African parents and was a member of the Roman clergy from youth. Of the three African popes, Gelasius seems to have been the busiest. He occupied the holy papacy four years, eight months and eighteen days from 492 A.D. until 496 A.D. Gelasius followed up Militades' work with the Manicheans. He exiled them from Rome and burned their books before the doors of the basilica of the holy Mary. He delivered the city of Rome from the peril of famine. He was a writer of strong letters to people of all rank and classes. He denounced Lupercailia, a fertility rite celebration. He asked them sternly why the gods they worshipped had not provided calm seas so the grain ships could have reached Rome in time for the winter. He wrote to Femina, a wealthy woman of rank, and asked her to have the lands of St. Peter, taken by the barbarians and the Romans, be returned to the church. The lands were needed for the poor who were flocking to Rome. His theory on the relations between the Church and the state are explained in the Gelasian Letter to the Byzantine Emperor Anastasius. He was known for his austerity of life and liberality to the poor.
There is today in the library of the church at Rome a 28 chapter document on church administration and discipline. Pope Saint Gelasius 1 feast day is November 21st.
Pope Saint Miliades 1
Saint Miltiades was one of the Church's Black Popes. Militades occupied the papacy from 311 to 314 A.D. serving four years, seven months and eight days. Militiades decreed that none of the faithful should fast on Sunday or on the fifth day of the week ...because this was the custom of the pagans. He also found residing in Rome a Persian based religion call Manichaenism. He furthered decreed that consecrated offerings should be sent throughout the churches from the pope's consecration. This was call leaven. It was Militiades who led the church to final victory over the Roman Empire. Militiades was buried on the famous Appain Way.
"Although it hasn't happened in 15 centuries, the Roman Catholic Church has had three African popes in its past, Victor (183-203 A.D.), Gelasius (492-496 A.D.) and Miliades (311-314 A.D.), all of whom are saints." - louisianaweekly.com
04-19-05, 08:43 PM DorianGreyed "Pope Benedict IX
The nephew of his two immediate predecessors, Benedict IX was a man of very different character to either of them. He was a disgrace to the Chair of Peter. Regarding it as a sort of heirloom, his father Alberic placed him upon it when a mere youth, not, however, apparently of only twelve years of age (according to Raoul Glaber, Hist., IV, 5, n. 17. Cf. V, 5, n. 26), but of about twenty (October, 1032)" - newadvent.org
"The youngest pope of all time is John XII. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, he was elected at the age of 18, while Philip Hughes says he was consecrated at the age of 16. Since we don't know the date of his birth, we can't be certain.
"The other major controversy involves Benedict IX (1032-44), who became the youngest pope, his age being estimated from 12 to almost 20. He was forcibly removed from office and succeeded by Sylvester III, who reigned briefly from January 20 to February 10, 1045. Benedict IX was reelected, with the help of an army. Realizing the insecurity of his position, however, Benedict resigned after serving less than a month (April 10, 1045 to May 1, 1045), giving way to the election of his sponsor, the archpriest John Gratian, who compensated Benedict monetarily for his resignation and became Pope Gregory VI (1045-46)." - Catholics United for the Faith
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"There were three African Popes who came from the region of North Africa. Although there are no authentic portraits of these popes, there are drawings and references in the Catholic Encyclopedia as to their being of African background. The names of the Three African Popes are: Victor (183-203 A.D.), Gelasius (492-496 A.D.), and Mechiades or Militiades (311-314 A.D.)." africanindependent.com/vatican_pope_black_
04-20-05, 11:16 AM kittypal Thanks guys!!! Smile
04-20-05, 03:03 PM frankvan I stand correctd. Red Face. All we need now is for someone to say that John Paul II's real name was Harry Snodgrass! Roll Eyes
04-20-05, 04:06 PM Leppi
quote: Originally posted by frankvan: All we need now is for someone to say that John Paul II's real name was Harry Snodgrass!
You mean you didn't know? That was his real name before he became Pope. Wink
04-20-05, 09:43 PM AMoore
quote: Originally posted by frankvan: I stand correctd. Red Face. All we need now is for someone to say that John Paul II's real name was Harry Snodgrass! Roll Eyes
I had thought of it in the other direction. I figured that after Pope John Paul we'd see Pope George Ringo...
Alan Moore
04-20-05, 10:46 PM jusork
quote: Originally posted by AMoore:
quote: Originally posted by frankvan: I stand correctd. Red Face. All we need now is for someone to say that John Paul II's real name was Harry Snodgrass! Roll Eyes
I had thought of it in the other direction. I figured that after Pope John Paul we'd see Pope George Ringo...
Alan Moore
Haha! Good one!
04-21-05, 04:35 PM FredPuli His Holiness was formerly dubbed "the Pope's Rottweiler" because he was the enforcer of conservatism for the Pope.Now we are , presumably, to call him 'The German shepherd' ( as suggested by a letter-writer in Britain's 'Daily Telegraph' ) Smile
04-24-05, 12:41 PM babthrower I wonder how many were Roman or, later, Italian? They certainly seem to have become God's chosen people.
04-25-05, 02:59 AM FredPuli There had been no non-Italian pope in over 450 years prior to John-Paul II. Score sheet as at appointment of the new pope: 217 Italian 17 French 8 German 3 Spanish and one each of Portuguese, Dutch, English and African plus of course , one from Galilee ( St Peter) [source Wikipedia ]
The one 'African' given by Wikipedia is St Gelasius but this is confusing. He was born in Rome but had African parents and so was Roman. Of the other two, Miltiades, seemingly , and Victor, certainly, were born in North Africa but under Roman rule.Miltiades was the one who was finally effective in causing the Roman Empire to adopt Christianity. Emperor Constantine, Emperor from 306 A.D.,was the first Christian Emperor and was converted during the papacy of Miltiades.
04-25-05, 08:36 AM babthrower Wow, what a concise but complete answer, Fred! I'm sure a lot of people will read and appreciate it.
DorianGE, why does the Catholic New Times call these African popes black? As everyone knows, then as now many North Africans are 'white', of the 'Mediterranean' variety of humans. In fact the first pope was of that variety.
Do you happen to know if there is reference to the skin color of the three in any source contemporary to any of them?
04-25-05, 06:20 PM FredPuli Good question and one which a letter-writer to The Times raised today. He too pointed out that it did not follow that these popes were black-skinned , simply because they or their parents came from North Africa.
In the case of one he was born in Carthage. Carthage lay in modern day Tunisia, near Tunis. It was once the seat a great power which was at war with Rome , losing every time , though not without giving the winners a scare ( remember Hannibal and his elephants crossing the Alps ? And no, I don't know how he got even one elephant into a ski-lift, either ) Carthage was founded by traders from Tyre, modern Lebanon.
It seems safer to say that these popes were not white-skinned but had the complexion of local coastal Arabs , which has a number of shades but is not truly black. It seems fanciful to think of them as black as, say, a Nigerian is black. Of course it has suited truly black people to claim them as black, like themselves,but the truth is that these were probably like modern Arab ( muslims Smile )
To the Romans themselves skin colour never seems to have been a question. They were a pragmatic people. A soldier or engineer could be of any colour, as far as they were concerned, and they always wanted the best men for their armies. They recruited the best talents from every place they conquered, from Britain to North Africa and from Spain to Germany. The system was egalitarian at this level and as the army was key to success in the politics of the Empire it followed that, eventually, men of all colours rose to positions of great influence. Likewise scholars and others of use to the Empire would not be subject to any colour bar or discrimination.
It follows from this that we are unlikely to have a detailed description of the skin colour of a pope of this epoch. The skin colour of anyone , notorious , famous or just ordinary was not a matter of special interest or comment for contemporaries.
04-25-05, 10:59 PM babthrower In fact I have read here and there that the Romans, at least in the early days of empire, were as freaked out by large, freckled redheads as by blacks. The Celts (or Kelts, as JR could point out) were terrifying even when their hair was dressed with wet lime (thus concealing the terrifying red color) and then dried in an upsweep, thus making them seem even taller. (The Romans were on average pretty short.)
It must have been a relief when as Caesar (Kaiser) notes, they encountered the Picts in the north of Britain: 'short, dark, and grey eyed'. The picts were content with occasional raiding, and did not seem inclined to invade.
Even these were overcome by taller, red-headed Irish (the 'Scots') and later by the Norse; so that their genes are present only as traces, as in my own line. The notion that the dark-haired Scots were descended from stranded Spanish from the Armada is a silly fiction, of the sort that leads to fake or 'folk' etymology, such as that which presents a totally absurd acronymic origin for a common four-letter word with an honest Germanic root. You know the one I mean.
04-26-05, 05:53 AM juanruiz The fortunes of the Roman Empire were very much dependent on its army. At it's height of power, it was the best army in the world. By the time of its fall, it was essentially made up of mercenaries and conscripts (mainly Goths). As an added note, Rome paid its soldiers in the valuable commodity of salt (sale), which they could resell. Hence the word salary.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
