What purpose, if any, did saloon doors serve back in the old west?

I would guess that the saloons weren't sturdy structures. They probably couldn't put a frame in for a door and the saloon doors cut down on the wind and dust.

REF.

quote:

In many of the more populated settlements, these saloons never closed, catering to their ever present patrons 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Some didn’t even bother to have a front door that would close.

One reason for the swinging doors.

Lets not forget that saloons were popular places for prostitution and gambling. Swinging doors allowed patrons to peek out to see if "the law" was coming.

Clare, I don’t think they were too worried about “the law” coming in as most towns in the old west prostitution and gambling were not illegal until much later.

My first guess at answering this question would have been so they can see who was coming in too, but not the law. They could tell who was approaching the door by the boots and hat that they wore. If it was a know “bad guy” or someone who someone else was looking out for approaching the door surprising them would be more difficult.

quote:

Originally posted by Koz:
Clare, I don’t think they were too worried about “the law” coming in as most towns in the old west prostitution and gambling were not illegal until much later.

That must be the origin of the phrase 'the good ole days'.

People of the Old West were amazingly very moral about some things. An establishment without a door would have, to them, seemed crude. Swinging doors allowed the respectability of a "fine establishment" coupled with the ability to see just who was coming in. Another factor was the weather. Most saloons, in cold winter areas, had regular doors that were used when appropriate. Doors, even swinging ones, also cut down on dust kicked up from unpaved roads. (No one likes dusty in their red-eye.)


Saloons of the Old West has some interesting information and links, but nothing about the doors. What I said about doors came from a history class taken a few years ago. (And not from memory, despite what Sailracer might say.)


By the way, it used to be illegal in New York to have a liquor establishment called a "saloon." While that law may not be in effect any longer, it did cause one place to change its painted sign to "Baloon." (Larry & Bob's Saloon became Larry & Bob's Baloon or something like that.) It was probably the best advertising that they could ever get.

I heard somewhere -- perhaps one of the History Channel documentaries -- that the familiar pair of swinging saloon doors depicted in so many movie Westerns are actually a myth -- that they were rarely seen in such establishments. Can anyone confirm this?

I think that the shutter style saloon doors that we know are the stuff of Hollywood to a certain extent, but they are also practical because the doors would make practical high traffic doors in the day when hinges needed to be highly maintained. I think many establishments would use this style door because it's simple hinging and allows you to not knock someone silly when you come barging in to get your shot of whisky.

Let's also not forget that women (wives) would most likely not go into saloons so being able to see in was an advantage (probably more than being able to see out) although I doubt that it had anything to do with the use of the doors.

I think it's a simple case of hinging being a problematic thing back before metals were treated to not corrode and this style of door was appropriate for light weight high traffic doors. By the way, even today, high traffic doors require a lot of adjustment when they are very heavy.

Additionally it would have been very impractical to install a door with glass in it in a saloon because that glass would likely be broken a few times a week. Glass was expensive and hard to come by because shipping was difficult. It isn't very sensible to have a door that is constantly being opened and closed without glass because you can really knock into someone.

Speaking of hinges and the old West:

Oh the hinges are of leather
And the windows have no glass
While the board roof
Lets the howling blizzards in
And I hear the hungry coyote
As he slinks up through the grass
Round the little old sod shanty
On my claim

Remember?

I came looking for the answer. All I see are more guesses, so I'll add my own. I think it's far more likely that the design of the saloon door was to block the view of the scantily clad (or nude) torso of the females from the passerbys outside. Dust would not have been stopped, and probably not even slowed, as it tends to stay close to the ground unless the wind pushing it is very strong (unlikely when driven by a walking horse or slow wagon).

I don't think that the women were scantily clad. Most of the people, including the men who frequented saloons, were very prudish. Note that one of the first buildings built in a newly founded town was usually a church.

I did see some interesting stuff last week on The History Channel’s show “Wild West Tech”. It was a program about saloons of the “Wild West”. While they did not address the saloon door issue, they did address the pictures of scantly dressed or nude women in saloons, so obviously I paid close attention . (Actually I like the show and watch it regularly)

The proprietors and customers were far from prudish. The proprietors used to pay good money for a picture featuring a nude woman, and most times kept it covered with a cloth. He would charge the customers to peek at the picture, hence the first “peep show”.

The only “prudish” fella featured in that episode was a man of slight stature who wore spectacles. He bellied up to a rough and tumble bar in the Wild West and ordered “coffee”. A local “tough guy” took his New York accent and his drink order as an insult and came up to him and demanded him to buy a round for the practically empty saloon. The man with the glasses simply said “no”. The really big tough guy then said that his money to buy the drinks, or his teeth will be on the bar real soon.

The smaller man turned removed his glasses and raised his fists in the classic (pre glove, I know that because the show also featured boxing in saloons) boxing position. The big guy laughed as this was not the common stance for saloon brawling, little did he know that the smaller guy was a boxer at Harvard University. Three quick blows to the face and the big guy was knocked unconscious much to the amusement of his friends.

The slight young man wearing the glasses was Theodore Roosevelt.

I've seen some of those paintings, Koz. They are hardly what we would call nudes today. By the standards of the time and place, the were certainly on the edge, but far more revealing pictures commonly appear in high school and middle school text books, and have for years. The paintings usually featured women reclining, with some sort of veil covering her hips.



Those who remember the TV series Gunsmoke (one of the few TV westerns to show a small town in the Old West in some degree of accuracy) have seen what most saloons were like in towns of the Old West. Most of those towns had (and some still have) a church on the main street, and most of the ones that don't have a street named "Church Street." The early saloons, the ones that preceeded the establishment of a town, were ramshackle buildings unlikely to have any decoration, but the later ones were often the most expensive buildings in the town (until it was large enough to have a bank).

There were two types of “bad girls” in the West. The “worst” types, according to the “proper” women, were the many painted ladies who made their living by offering paid sex in the numerous brothels, parlor houses, and cribs of the western towns. The second type of “bad girl” were the saloon and dance hall women, who contrary to some popular thinking, were generally not prostitutes -- this tended to occur only in the very shabbiest class of saloons. Though the “respectable” ladies considered the saloon girls “fallen”, most of the girls wouldn’t be caught dead associating with an actual prostitute.

Saloon and Dance Hall Girls

A saloon or dancehall girl’s job was to brighten the evenings of the many lonely men of the western towns. In the Old West, men usually outnumbered women by at least three to one – sometimes more, as was the case in California in1850, where 90% of the population was male. Starved for female companionship, the saloon girl would sing for the men, dance with them, and talk to them – inducing them to remain in the bar, buying drinks and patronizing the games.

Not all saloons employed saloon girls, such as in Dodge City’s north side of Front Street, which was the “respectable” side, where both Saloon girls and gambling were barred, and featured music and billiards as the chief amusements to accompany drinking.

Most saloon girls were refugees from farms or mills, lured by posters and handbills advertising high wages, easy work, and fine clothing. Many were widows or needy women of good morals, forced to earn a living in an era that offered few means for women to do so.

Vintage Dance Hall Girl PostcardEarning as much as $10 per week, most saloon girls also made a commission from the drinks that they sold. Whiskey sold to the customer was generally marked up 30-60% over its wholesale price. Commonly drinks bought for the girls would only be cold tea or colored sugar water served in a shot glass; however, the customers were charged the full price of whiskey, which could range from ten to seventy-five cents a shot.

Saloon girls wore brightly colored ruffled skirts that were scandalously short for the time – mid-shin or knee-length. Under the bell-shaped skirts, could be seen colorfully hued petticoats that barely reached their kid boots that were often adorned with tassels. More often than not, their arms and shoulders were bare, their bodices cut low over their bosoms, and their dresses decorated with sequins and fringe. Silk, lace, or net stockings were held up by garters, which were often gifts from their admirers. The term “painted ladies” was coined because the “girls” had the audacity to wear make-up and dye their hair. Many were armed with pistols or jeweled daggers concealed in their boot tops or tucked between her breasts to keep the boisterous cowboys in line.

Most saloon girls were considered "good" women by the men they danced and talked with; often receiving lavish gifts from admirers. In most places the proprieties of treating the saloon girls as “ladies” were strictly observed, as much because Western men tended to revere all women, as because the women or the saloon keeper demanded it. Any man who mistreated these women would quickly become a social outcast, and if he insulted one he would very likely be killed. - From my link above

Most certainly, there were the "wild" saloons in the Old West, but most of those died out with the formation of a town. The earlier saloons were unlikely to be in a location where women lived, let alone walked by, so a door would be unnecessary to prevent them or anyones else from seeing in. The people who founded a town were certainly aware that, in order the town to be successful and businesses thrive, famlies must attracted, and families meant a certain degree of law and order must be maintained.

Churches in Old Dodge City
(from Dodge City and Ford County, Kansas
1879-1920: Pioneer Histories and Stories)

The first church group was founded in November of 1872, only a few months after the establishment of Dodge City. The Union Church building, built in 1874 (its bell is exhibited on Boot Hill), was located on the northeast corner of First Ave. and Spruce St. As the population increased, denominations were organized. Before these congregations built separate churches, they usually met on different time schedules in the Union Church.

The Presbyterians, organized in June 1878, were the first to build their own church. The Dodge City Times, June 8, 1878, announced the organizing of the first denominational organization:

"The wicked city of Dodge can at last boast of a Christian organization, a Presbyterian Church. It was organized last Sunday a week. We would have mentioned the matter last week but we thought it best to break the news gently to the outside world."

The Rev. Ormond Wright, a young Presbyterian minister, served the Union Church, as well as the Presbyterians. They built a small Gothic-windowed frame church in 1880, and remodeled and enlarged the building in 1887 and again in 1900.

The Methodists organized in August 1878, and built one block west of the Presbyterian Church in 1884.

The Baptists organized under Rev. N.G. Collins, and built their church in 1885.

The Christian Church organized in 1886 and in its early struggles moved into several downtown locations.

The first Roman Catholic missionary priest to come to Dodge City, held services in the early Sunday morning hours at the Union Church. In 1882, the Catholics built a little white frame church on the corner of Railroad (Central) Ave. and Cedar St.

The last of these first early churches, the St. Cornelius Episcopal Church, was founded in 1888 as an Episcopal Mission. It is the only one of the first churches still holding services in the original building, completed in 1898. - Ford County Historical Society

Professor, I've always heard that swinging saloon doors are mainly ideas from Hollywood set designers.

Judge Roy Bean's Saloon is Langry, Texas was one of the more familiar saloons and didn't have swinging doors. And for the most part, early western saloons were stand alone structures that mainly consisted of one room with minimal furniture. If you research for photos of old west saloons you will find very few (if any) with swinging doors.
Check out some of the pictures here:
Legends of America

OMG Dorian, that picture is a little bit revealing.

Aren't these swinging saloon doors? Hardly a myth.

Indeed. And they look double-hinged, too.