What does it mean if someone styles himself 'esquire'? For example, if he uses it in his address.
I've of course looked this up in my O.U.D., but I'm sure the usage and definition have changed over the years, and may even have local interpretations.
According to the O.U.D., in 1460 it meant 'a young man ... aspiring to the knighthood' -- a knight-in-training. Later, it meant 'youngest sons of peers and their eldest sons; eldest sons of knights and their eldest sons; chiefs of ancient families by prescription'. It also was used by men who held certain offices: 'as judges, justices of the peace' ... and so forth. (1537)
The article goes on to say (and this usage goes back to 1552) 'a title allowed by courtesy to all who are regarded as gentlemen.'
So of course I looked up 'gentleman'.
Wow. No great light thrown on the problem here. In fact it gets worse. A gentleman is a man of 'gentle birth'. What, no forceps?
No, it seems to mean that that A gentleman is the son of a gentleman. Which is kind of a silly way to define 'gentleman'. But who am I to quibble with the O.U.D.? Where was I in 1483?
But also, a 'gentleman' may be * even though not of noble birth, be allowed to bear arms * a member of a society or profession * attached to the house of the sovereign or a person of rank * a man of chivalrous instincts and fine feelings * a man of superior social position, often a man of money and leisure.
But about 1583 the usage broadened quite a lot.
* 'A courteous synomyn for "a man"'
And (horrors!) in 1862, 'in legal documents, a person who has no occupation'! What, even girls?
Oh, wait a minute. I think there was a big deal about whether women were people about that time. That issue wasn't straightened out in Canada until the issue went to the British House of Lords in 1929 (Canada was still a colony then) and that House said, "If we have to put up with it, you bloody Colonials also have to. Yes, they're people. So shut up and don't bother us any more!"
So under the circumstances, is it meaningless for someone to want to be addressed as 'esquire' in this century? Even just on the front of an envelope?
Posts: 6797 | Location: British Columbia, Canada | Registered: 06-11-02
In the late seventies, I had a summer job in a bank in Scotland, part of which was addressing envelopes. For every male customer it was "_____ ______ esq." I vaguely remember being told that was because according to convention, being bank customers, they were men of property.
Maybe, these days, 'esquire' could be taken to mean anyone who is not actually homeless and penniless. The average working stiff now probably has title over things any ancient noble would give his right arm for - cars, flat screen TVs and the like.
I always thought 'gentleman', in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries anyway, described a man who didn't have to work, having enough money to live off the interest. I guess that wasn't such an uncommon situation when the British Empire was in full swing, and colonies were being exploited. Of course such a person could practice (not work) in a profession such as a law or medicine.
Originally posted by babthrower: What does it mean if someone styles himself 'esquire'? For example, if he uses it in his address.
Nowadays it means he's not a gentleman! Nobody has e.g. 'James Smith esquire' on a visiting card now.In my young days, nobody put their telephone number on a card either. We just put our address and our Club.
The telephone number was not given lest it suggested that the recipient was expected to telephone in reply on receiving the card. There was no rule against putting the number under the address on a letter.
The professions, the law excepted, had other titles e.g Captain, Doctor, Reverend and so 'esquire' was unnecessary. In the law, a barrister was 'esquire' but a solicitor was 'Mr'(Quite right too.They're a common lot ).Surgeons, from historical tradition, were, and are, styled 'Mr', in Britain, to show that they are surgeons and not mere 'Doctor'.
Ha. Calling yourself "esquire" surely just calls attention to the fact that you don't have any academic credentials, military experience or even membership of any association - no claim at all to any other kind of post-name initials.
That's the word that came to my mind ( pretentious, not the other one ).It's not for the person to declare that he is esquire, it's for others to decide.I don't suppose his visiting cards would ever have 'Mr' on.
When does this man style himself 'esquire' ? Over here we don't have our name printed above the address on writing paper.That's thought naff (= in poor taste, vulgar: pick your word ) here.It may be fine in the US (is it?) but English people are expected to be self-effacing and understating at all times, sometimes to a degree which is incomprehensible to everyone else.In a country where people don't introduce themselves by name to strangers but wait until they are leaving or ending the conversation (if judged appropriate to so at all), printing it in a letter- heading is definitely out.
By the way,NNN, talking of credentials, you never see anyone who is a PhD styling themselves 'Dr' here. And it's most certainly not the thing to put BA or MA and the like after your name in private correspondence (or professionally, if it can be avoided).We allow peers, knights and baronets to style themselves Lord and Sir but they commonly don't do so (see above for the obvious reason )
Fred asks, ‘When does this man style himself 'esquire' ?
When giving out his address. Not on printed letterhad, he doesn’t use it.
Actually I had evidence earlier that he is pretentious. He told me his father was a sculptor. Later I met his dad, a decent, unassuming fellow, and he casually mentioned that he had been a teacher all his life. I said, “Oh, when I asked Max what his dad for a living, Max replied, “He’s a sculptor.”
(My question itself was a pushy one, I blushingly admit)
His dad smiled. “I taught at the Grey Schoool of Art all my working life. I did two or three sculpures on commission, for the city of Aberdeen, busts of founding fathers, that sort of thing. But my profession was teaching.”
His mum was the pretentious one. She told me she was connected to the house of the Duke of Montrose. Yeah, by a long chain tied to a stake in their back yard, where her job was to guard the sheep, I thought – but did not say.
Fred continues, “...but English people are expected to be self-effacing and understating at all times, sometimes to a degree which is incomprehensible to everyone else.”
I do agree. I was once present when an Englishwoman was mis-represented as a ‘nanny’ in conversation, when she was in fact, as I knew, related to the children’s mother and just visiting in Canada for a few months. She was actually taking a sabbatical from an advanced degree program, and helping out for her sister during her visit. She did not correct the terminology. I explained. Even this embarrassed her. Once again, I inferred, I had been ‘pushy’.
Fred continues: “... you never see anyone who is a PhD styling themselves 'Dr' here. And it's most certainly not the thing to put BA or MA and the like after your name in private correspondence (or professionally, if it can be avoided).”
This is the case in Canada, too
“We allow peers, knights and baronets to style themselves Lord and Sir but they commonly don't do so...”
This issue does not come up in Canada. The only connection we have with knights and baronets is that they shipped off their fourth-and-subsequent male offspring, with their wives, to Vancouver Island, which has a climate similar to that of England. There, their lack of status in law or the church or the military, did not cause the family embarrassment. Also, there they could be maintained by remittances very inexpensively on Crown Land in quite comfortable circumstances, inexpensive servants (but alas improperly trained), and without the cultural amenities to which they would prefer to be accustomed.
Of course, to me, whose ancestors were merely a sept of the Clan MacLean in the Hebrides, where I live, across the Strait from Vancouver Island, is paradise.
Yours,
Babthrower, B.A.
Posts: 6797 | Location: British Columbia, Canada | Registered: 06-11-02
I was once present when an Englishwoman was mis-represented as a ‘nanny’ in conversation, when she was in fact, as I knew, related to the children’s mother and just visiting in Canada for a few months. She was actually taking a sabbatical from an advanced degree program, and helping out for her sister during her visit. She did not correct the terminology. I explained. Even this embarrassed her. Once again, I inferred, I had been ‘pushy’.
Babs, you definitely must get a copy of that funny study, now in paperback, "Watching the English: The Hidden Rules of English Behaviour" by Kate Fox It's a great read for anyone who has ever been in contact with the English.She's an (English) anthropologist who spent years observing the English in the same way that she might, professionally, watch any other ' tribe'.The reviews on Amazon (US) give an accurate description of the consequences.
Note: You certainly broke some of the mysterious English rules Here's how an English person sees it: It was for the woman herself to decide whether to risk embarrassing the other by correcting the mistake . The other might be embarrassed by thinking someone a nanny, who knows? If the woman says nothing, no harm is done and the other can proceed in happy ignorance.It doesn't matter that they're mistaken. Your correcting it ran the risk of embarrassing everyone, and did embarrass the "nanny" (apart from, that she doesn't need you to speak for her, and may be irritated by being treated as though she can't speak or decide for herself).Anyway, if it ever becomes essential to explain it can be done in an English way : 'Yes, and my wages are terrible.No money, but a bowl of gruel promised at Christmas....thank goodness it's only when I'm visiting the house' [Of course an American might not get that, but look at her as though she's a bit mad: then she'd have to explain properly]
We always try to avoid correcting mistakes of this nature.My late father was forever being mistaken for staff but always went along with it as far as could be done without embarrassing the other person George Mikes, a Hungarian writer, was astonished by it.He once watched someone explaining the weather, wrongly, to a man who, unknown to him, was not a layman but a Professor of Meteorology, who listened with apparent interest, keeping the conversation going but never once admitting to any knowledge at all.A friend met someone at a showbizzy club, The Groucho, and the conversation ran along these lines : 'Are you anything to do with music, then?' 'Well, a bit, once' and after several more questions ending 'Did you do gigs?' He smiled sweetly and said 'Yes,sometimes. The band is called Status Quo.......we're still struggling along.' Isn't that English? Even when he told her that he was a star of the music world he left room for her not to be embarrassed: she might not have heard of the band
As a PS: The Queen Mother, as she later became, was once addressed by a man who asked her 'What's your husband doing nowadays?' to which she replied, straight-faced, 'Oh, he's still King'
Thank you, Fred. I love getting news of good books I haven't heard of. That sounds like a winner!
The distinction between Canadian brashness and English hypersensitivity reminds me of the difference, as I perceive it, between Aussies and Kiwis. New Zealanders seem much more careful when they speak, so as not to say things which might be misinterpreted. Actually I've had quite a few kiwi friends in my life, and find them by and large very decent people.
Of course we in Canada think we are like the Kiwis, and the U.S.A. Americans are more like the Aussies.
We are accused by Americans of apologizing when someone bumps into us. We retort that the American would say, "Watch yourself next time" if we apologize when he/she bumps into us.
And the women are worse than the men. (I blush for my sex.)
Hold it, I didn't mean that exactly. My sex is non-existent so I needn't blush for it. I mean I blush for the behavior of some members of my gender.
Posts: 6797 | Location: British Columbia, Canada | Registered: 06-11-02
Kate Fox tried the experiment, among many others, of deliberately bumping into people, just to see what they'd do and say She also tried queue -jumping and was fascinated by the invisible queue in a pub.
The book as sold over 250,000 copies and has been translated into modern Chinese, inter alia. Goodness knows what the Chinese make of us !
There's only one misunderstanding she has. She was puzzled by our never giving a barman or barmaid a tip but saying " Have one [a drink] for yourself" instead. She interprets this as rooted in some subtlety in the English personality, which causes us to shy from giving a monetary tip but not from buying a drink for the barman.She tries to give an answer. Sadly for her theory, the truth has no psychological basis.It's rooted in the old licensing law.This said that only the person holding the licence for the pub was allowed to pay the wages of the staff.If a customer or any outsider made any payment to the wages that was an offence, the licensee and the donor could be prosecuted and the licensee's licence revoked.A cash tip was 'payment to the wages' but a drink was not.In practice, by modern times, it was common for the barman or barmaid to say " Thank you. I'll take for a [names a modest drink] if that's all right" and then put the cash for that in a beer glass for tips.Some would take the drink,but there could be practical limits to the practice.In fact, people would only 'buy a drink' if they bought an enormous round or if it was the end of the evening and the barman or barmaid had been working throughout, so the number of drinks bought would not be enormous.
There was no rule against putting the number under the address on a letter.
).Surgeons, from historical tradition, were, and are, styled 'Mr', in Britain, to show that they are surgeons and not mere 'Doctor'.
) here.It may be fine in the US (is it?) but English people are expected to be self-effacing and understating at all times, sometimes to a degree which is incomprehensible to everyone else.In a country where people don't introduce themselves by name to strangers but wait until they are leaving or ending the conversation (if judged appropriate to so at all), printing it in a letter- heading is definitely out. 
