If someone doesn't like their life (let's say they are in their 40s) and they want to just stop, would letting them end their life be an acceptable option? When people commit suicide because they are tired of life, is it wrong for them to end it? I suppose it could be possible to try to fix the person psychologically, but why is it prefered over letting them die if they'd like? ***************************************************************** 07-09-03, 07:55 PM kittypal Tough question, I suppose it would depend on whether or not the person has had any counseling or been on any medication before, sometimes depression is just a matter of fixing chemical imbalance or getting some help. Personally if all that has been tried or if the person has been unhappy for ages, I say death is better than constant suffering. I'm not syre why suicide is considered illegal.
07-09-03, 09:00 PM Tree Just because... tomorrow can be a brighter day!
It could possibly be some depression that the person is going through, that will eventually be conquered!
Check out "Whose Life Is It, Anyway?" with Richard Dryfuss. It deals with a man who suddenly becomes a quadrapoligic and wants to end his life. It's an interesting movie.
A person who wants to kill himself today, may feel on top of the world, next year...
Frown
07-09-03, 09:09 PM honilov Yes Jusork, it is wrong for a person to end their life....'Thou Shall Not Kill'. Most suicidal people can be fixed (so to speak) with medicine and counseling, and it's preferred over letting them die because it's understood that the person is 'sick', the person is loved, and it would be devastating to the loved ones left behind.
I've experienced a teenage family member trying to commit suicide, and it's hard on everybody. So please Jusork, if you could ever deter someone from trying to kill themself, please do.
07-09-03, 09:35 PM Kelleygirl I had a dear friend named Melanie. Her life started off in an abusive family and at 11 years old had to have her leg amputated due to cancer. I met her in high school. She was doing okay then even tried bowling and other sports with us. At 19, she went off to college and that's when the depression and schizophrenia became part of her life. She went from doctor to doctor; they had her on every medication available. And she spent many of days, crying and having horrible hallucinations. Her family and her friends tried as they might to give her love and support, but to not avail. She attempted suicide many times and was finally "successful" at the age of 43. At her funeral, her sister said to me, "It's okay--for Melanie it was more painful to be alive then to be dead." And I have finally come to believe that. For some people, the darkness will never go away.
07-09-03, 09:44 PM jusork Thanks for the movie tip, Tree. It says where I found it that it's a comedy drama. I'll see about renting it maybe.
If I could easily help someone and it's not too horrible for them, I probably would, Honi. But if it's really hard, I'd probably rather they be euthanized if they'd like. The rules for "Thou shalt not kill" is kind of vague to know what it means exactly though, at least for me.
43 years, wow that's actually a lot of years for her to live through.
[This message was edited by jusork on 07-09-03 at 09:53 PM.]
07-10-03, 12:17 AM Tree jusork -- it has some light hearted moments to break the tension, but I think it's worth viewing!
Wink
07-10-03, 12:33 AM sonnet26 jusork:
I am in my 40s (I'll be 50 in November) and life has been a challenge. I attempted suicide, when I was 16, but failed miserably, thank God.
I would have missed out on a lot of really good things, had I succeeded.
I believe you should attempt to intervene, in whatever capacity you can, but don't take it personally if you "fail." We are all responsible for our own actions, whatever they may be.
07-10-03, 02:26 AM samantha I personally don't think it should be against the law to do so. I think there are alot of people who are really just not content with life no matter what they do or what drugs they take.
07-10-03, 03:02 AM Wildflower63 You are questioning individual rights vs. rights of society as a whole. You are talking to one individual who would love to just give it up and let the peace of death take me. Is this ethical? No, it isn't at all.
Have you thought to question what families and friends go through with the grieving process feeling guilt over what they should have done? This is cruel and inhumane to any survivors. How can you justify this? I can't.
Sorry you loser jerks that would do this to anyone that actually cares. Life has it's ups and downs. You strengthen with the downs and learn wisdom. Sorry if you are just too weak for that to inflict the pain on others for your own escape.
Suicide of a healthy individual is never justified. It is weakness. It is selfishness. It sickens me.
07-10-03, 09:54 AM Georgia85 I kinda have to agree with Wildflower. To me suicide is the coward's way out. No one said life would be easy. Although it is much easier for some than for others. And I have certainly had my share of blue moments when I've contemplated suicide and cried to myself that there would not be a single person on this earth that would miss me or probably even know if I was gone.
Sometimes life gets so painful, whether due to physical problems or emtional problems, that the weaker person would just throw up their hands in despair and say "who cares!" But for me....being brought up with a strong religious background....suicide is the unforgiveable sin that sends you straight to hell. I don't know if this is true...but I'm not willing to take that gamble. And THAT thought (or brainwashing) is what keeps me treking along and waiting for new thrills that come along with each and every day.
07-10-03, 09:58 AM methos
quote:
Originally posted by kittypal: ... I'm not syre why suicide is considered illegal.
I'm pretty sure suicide is legal, at least in most states.
07-10-03, 10:51 AM mattlynda if you attempt suicide (at least in alberta) and fail, you are arrested under the mental health act and locked away in a mental facility. so id call that illegal.
you should be allowed to end your life if youare in chronic, supreme pain. it is rude and cruel to make to make someone suffer like that. if there is no hope, no cure, why make them hate being alive? why make them suffer? if our pets are like that, we put them down and end their misery. why not us? we are kinder to animals in that respect.
however, if someone wants to end it just because of stress, depression, or 'its just not worth it anymore', then no, they can work out their problems, get counceling, support, drugs, to help them through it.
07-10-03, 10:54 AM mattlynda and just a note on georgias last point, about going straight to hell if you commit suicide, id rather face that than daily unending agony. ive suffered through days where it hurts to breathe, and it hurts so much that i cant even cry, and i DO NOT want to have that happen for years on end, with the only way out being dying. heres hoping ill never get that bad.
07-10-03, 10:54 AM SeattleRon let'em end it if they want to. I personally couldn't take my own life, but let'em kill themselves if they want.
07-10-03, 11:28 AM justawful And I have finally come to believe that. For some people, the darkness will never go away.
A poignant quote from Kellygirl.
Those that say the depressed are loser jerks that care only for themselves, and infringe upon the rights of their loved ones and society as a whole, only reinforce the depression felt. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's exactly because the depressed care so much that they are depressed. Show me one person without a care in the world that would take their own life. Show me one person with no compassion for anyone but themselves that would take their own life. Show me one coward that would have the courage to do such a thing. For some, life is more than just breathing. For some, life is so painful it's not worth living. Those that don't suffer this way can never understand it.
07-10-03, 11:35 AM methos
quote:
Originally posted by mattlynda: if you attempt suicide (at least in alberta) and fail, you are arrested under the mental health act and locked away in a mental facility. so id call that illegal.
07-10-03, 11:35 AM kittypal Killing yourself isn't illegal, after all if you suceed they can't put you in jail, but if you fail you will be put into a hospital for observation and your family then has a right to commit you, also if someone threatens suicide the police can act upon it and take you in.
07-10-03, 12:43 PM Elexina I believe that we all have the right to live as we please and along with that should be the right to die as we will. If a person (of sound mind) is tired of life and no longer wants to live, I feel that they have the right to end that life. If they are unstable and can be helped through counseling and/or medication, then that is something that must be pursued first. People should try to find help, to fix themselves, before taking that final drastic step.
07-10-03, 03:35 PM mattlynda methos, im not 100% positive, and things might have changed in the last 3 years, but 3 years ago i had a friend who attempted suicide; after recovering in the hospital for 2 days, she was hauled away in handcuffs and sent to a treatment centre where she was restrained and fed drugs she did not want. she has no family, so they did not sign anything, and she certainly did not sign anything. so that to me says she was arrested.
07-10-03, 05:23 PM NCcichlid Suicide My Dad committed suicide. Always a proud man, a loving husband and a devoted father it came to the point that he thought his love for his family was greater than our love for him.
Saddled with a rare genetic disorder that left him speechless and unable to walk without a walker, he coerced a repairman to get down a shoebox from the top shelf in the bedroom. Inside the shoebox was a loaded pistol. He went outside to the driveway and shot himself behind the right ear.
It was a tough time for the family, but we have moved on and become closer. Dad was a good man and may he rest in peace.
07-10-03, 07:56 PM Wildflower63 I believe suicide attempt is illegal. It allows police to intervine and get the depressed person the help they need. Suicide is not the answer. There are hotlines people should hopefully use if they really feel bad enough for suicide and feel there is no way out. There is. They need help to find their way.
07-10-03, 08:57 PM gatman To be old, alone, poor and sick is four strikes. That to me is understandable reason for choosing your own time. Also Doctor Kavorkian with his efforts to assist those whose health left no hope but only further erosion and pain is justified. I always think of the line"they shoot horses don't they?". Sometimes loving a person means letting them go a little bit early.
07-10-03, 08:58 PM Katanya2000
quote:
Originally posted by Wildflower63: You are questioning individual rights vs. rights of society as a whole. You are talking to one individual who would love to just give it up and let the peace of death take me. Is this ethical? No, it isn't at all.
Have you thought to question what families and friends go through with the grieving process feeling guilt over what they should have done? This is cruel and inhumane to any survivors. How can you justify this? I can't.
Sorry you loser jerks that would do this to anyone that actually cares. Life has it's ups and downs. You strengthen with the downs and learn wisdom. Sorry if you are just too weak for that to inflict the pain on others for your own escape.
Suicide of a healthy individual is never justified. It is weakness. It is selfishness. It sickens me.
Wildflower...in a way I am happy for you that you feel this way. It means you grew up in a world that wasn't filled with monsters. However, I have to tell you that you are wrong...but I think that's only because you're not really thinking about what you're saying.
I know a girl who first tried to kill herself when she was only ten. I know her well...
Let me talk about abuse here for a moment.
It's cumulative. It builds up on you. It weighs you down. It breaks your spirit. It eats at your pride, your sense of worth, your capacity for hope.
I'm not going to talk about this anymore, or what would make a child of 10 so desperate for escape...I'll only two things
Not everyone that seeks help gets it. Some are turned away
and,
There are things in life that one can face, which far worse than death.
07-10-03, 09:31 PM Texan-In-Exile Suicide is one of the leading causes of death on my mother's side of my family.
Life was so unbearable that I thought about it often while I was growing up. Then, when I finally sought help at age 39 (which, by the way - there was only one therapist out of many who helped at all), the psychologist asked me why I didn't kill myself. I didn't know. Then - I finally realized: I didn't really want to stop living - I just wanted to stop hurting!
My brother experienced pressure of the other kind: He felt he had to be productive, perfect. And when his body and mind began to fail, he felt the only way to not be a burden to his family would be to kill himself. He left several letters to his family as well as a detailed explanation of his view of life, a list of the value of all their possessions and instructions for his disposal. Although I wish he had given counseling a try, I can't hate him for ending his life - I know he had to be in true agony, and felt that suicide was the best for all concerned. (I disagree, but I realize that I wasn't in his mind.)
I had an uncle who had terminal cancer and ended his life before the cancer could.
These are only two of the many relatives who chose suicide.
Whether a person is condemned for it is between him/her and God. Sometimes it may be the best thing for the person. But I believe that all other avenues must be tried first, especially if the pain is emotional.
07-10-03, 09:44 PM samantha I agree with you Tex sometimes people just really do not want to live for what ever reason emotional or physical doesn't matter its both a sickness just one of the body and one of the mind. Its hard to understand this to someone who has never felt this way tho.
07-11-03, 08:45 AM dogspit I could not begrudge another person's right to make that decision, because I have long considered it my right and a viable option. Perhaps the option of help is there, but when the overpowering fear of even walking out the door is at its worse, the thought of help is not even one that seems realistic. I have known a few people in my life who have committed suicide. I remember a friend's Mom saying "He was just not meant to make it the world". She and all the family had tried to get him help, doctors had tried, and he had only gotten worse on the meds. So he took his life, and most of us who knew him were relieved for him and for those people who he made
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
Posts: 6467 | Location: Grayson, Georgia, USA | Registered: 06-03-02
Originally posted by SpaceComics: I don't see how anyone can say anything is "far worse than death." When did you experience death?
Good question !But some people get to a state of mind where they do imagine that life is not worth living, as we all know. Surely only those who are in constant intense pain, ever worsening and incurable, could ever reasonably think that way.Euthanasia may then seem an attractive option. [Welcome to AP ]
Originally posted by jusork: If someone doesn't like their life (let's say they are in their 40s) and they want to just stop, would letting them end their life be an acceptable option?
07-10-03, 03:02 AM Wildflower63 You are questioning individual rights vs. rights of society as a whole. You are talking to one individual who would love to just give it up and let the peace of death take me. Is this ethical? No, it isn't at all.
None of us had a choice of birth and life, yet we do live. At times we do question ethics of our parents. My parents 'wanted kids'.
Fantastic! I share their flawed genetics! Should I have the choice of ending my life? I didn't choose life, just given one.
Where is it that individual rights are above right of society, meaning family that loves you? You have to be ethical and consider the rights of others, like family.
We all have hardship in life. Intelligent people do question life, as you are. Nature dictated my birth and will do so with my death. No need to rush this matter. I will die. Do my adult kids and elderly parents really need to see me take my own life because I have this choice?
The most ethical, but difficult decision, live. I understand if you cannot live for yourself at this point in time. Life changes and so will you.
Originally posted by Wildflower63: Where is it that individual rights are above right of society, meaning family that loves you? You have to be ethical and consider the rights of others, like family.
You are so far off the mark here WF, that it's difficult to take what you are saying seriously.
When a person is in a suicidal state of mind, ethics are the last thing they are thinking of. The pressure to live for the sake of others becomes an added burden they just can't cope with. Remember most severely depressed people are not in a rational frame of mind. Suicide is nearly always a viable option for somebody that is seriously depressed. Sometimes medications and counselling don't work. For those of us that are left behind after a suicide, it is sometimes hard get over the feeling of abandonment. I know, because I am one of those people that lost somebody to suicide. However, we move on, and we don't blame the person that is gone. We know that ultimately the pain for them involved in just existing, rather than living, is too difficult to bear.
Originally posted by Wildflower63: Exactly where am I 'off the mark'? Would like to know!
and
Originially posted by dancegirl: When a person is in a suicidal state of mind, ethics are the last thing they are thinking of.
WF, I think she made her point clearly. Sincerely suicidal people do not take the feelings of their families into consideration - if they did, they probably wouldn't do it.
Some of us reach an age where we are alone in the world. We had no children, and parents and siblings are dead. Perhaps we have a terminal illness and are suffering constant and increasing pain. If I have the choice of spending every last cent I have in order to prolong my life and suffering, or end it and leave my money to someone who can benefit from it, what buttinski can decide for me? Based as it would be on their moral compass or religious persuasion which I do not share??? My idea of ethical behavior toward strangers or casual acquaintances is "mind your own damned business!
My life belongs to me. If I had reason to want to end it a bit before nature would end it, because, for example, of a painful fatal illness, I would expect those who love me to respect my judgment.
I know them well enough to know they would prefer that I be at rest than that I subject myself to pointless suffering.
The question, though, was about someone in their forties. It would be none of my business, but privately I would not judge someone harshly unless they left dependent children behind. Even then, if they felt they were harming their children, e.g. chronic abusive alcoholics, then it might be best if they leave the scene -- permanently.
Posts: 6257 | Location: British Columbia, Canada | Registered: 06-11-02
I get aggravated with this type of discussion because it reinforces what I know - people think those that commit suicide make a choice because something is wrong in their lives. The reality is that most people who commit suicide suffer from mental illness and it should be looked at very similarly to terminal cancer. I am very glad to have seen the transformation that took place before someone close to me commit suicide because I don't ever ask "What happened?" I know that he got very sick and couldn't go on. It wasn't a choice that he made but a failure on the part of the medical community to deal with his pain and suffering. I have had to deal with all sorts of questions about the two suicides that have affected my life and it is hard to deal with those people who proclaim that it was so "selfish" or want to know if the person was A. A closeted gay B. In financial ruins C. Spouse problems D. Child abuser...etc.
My response to these questions about the two cases is "None of those things. He had a severe issue with depression and had been hospitalized. Have you ever known anyone with depression?" This brings things to a more reasonable discussion of mental illness rather than suicidal choice.
I don't think most 45 year olds would just decide to take their life because things weren't going their way. People who commit suicide are generally very ill with depression, anxiety or other mental illnesses. I'm sure some are afflicted with fatal illnesses and they might choose to end their lives, but for many it is a medical problem that should be attended to by a caring and compassionate medical facility that doesn't limit access to care based on insurance coverage. (insurance running out is why my one friend is no longer with us.)
Removing stigmas and assumptions about suicide is really important to helping solve issues.
Posts: 3049 | Location: USA | Registered: 06-04-02
It's unfortunate that many of the people in this type of situation have no medical insurance and don't realize they don't have to see a doctor to get help. They just cannot fathom the idea of calling around to FIND that help, because they're so depressed that the simplest things are overwhelming to them.
One of my favorite posts Clare ever did was THIS one which has alot of information for people to reach out to. THOSE people will help find the programs these people need.
I am replying to this post with mixed emotions. While I can state that I believe portions of each argument presented hold some weight, i am going to share the fact that my older sister was a drug user. You name the drug, she might have used it. At one point in her life, she attempted to Overdose on her drugs. I spent 3 months living in her apartment and paying rent and groceries (she paid for the electric, etc.) while she entered rehab.
Do I believe that suicide is okay, even for someone in her situation? No, I do not. As already stated, help is available. Whether it is in the form of a friend or a phone number, it exists.
Was she being selfish? No. I think of myself everyday, I do things for myself, and I work very well with others. I love to be left alone. Does this make me or anybody selfish? Not necessarily. Just because a person does something to themselves does not make them selfish, especially when it involves ending their on pain. If it did, then laws might exist to state that the elderly or infirm may not put in their will, "pull the plug to end the pain." Instead, she, as others may be, had no idea that help was so close and would be provided in less than a heartbeat by those who love her.
Posts: 135 | Location: Titusville, Florida, US | Registered: 01-22-04
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