Selling Son's Beloved Play Station 2 For Punishment! Bidding has ended for this item Winning bid: US $122.50
Parents please let your children read this auction.
It was a glory day when my son received his Play Station 2. This beloved machine was his prize possession. He played, if not for hours at a time. When he would not take care of anything else, but he took care of this little treasure of his. Ground him, take away phone privileges………….anything but this PS2.
UP FOR AUCTION OR FOR SALE DUE TO PUNISHMENT
PLAY STATION 2 PS2 USED PLAYS GREAT! ASK MY SON
CHICKNWING@SBCGLOBAL.NET
COMES WITH TWO CONTROLERS SOME TYPE OF MEMORY CARD NO GAMES NO RESERVE
Here is the story: This weekend my 13 year old son decided to be destructive, deceptive and disobedient. I had a bugle I was selling on Ebay and while I was out he decided to “play” with it. Sunday morning when the auction was to end, He picked up the bugle and asked me if I knew it was broken. He handed me the bugle which he had “played” with and both solder joints were broken and since it was out of alignment the slide is now stiff.
Lets back up one night. That was the tip of the iceberg. Saturday night I send my son & his friend to the skating rink like the rest of the parents. I was to pick him up from the skating rink after it ended. Well he went home, while I was not there with his friend and they invited someone I do not know to the house while WE were not there. I get home about 11:30 PM and find the house is wrecked. Beer was missing. Confronted son and friends about beer…Yes they had drank the beer. -$6.00 Strike one!
Get up the next morning only the find the mysteriously broken bugle! -$51.00 Strike Two!
Here is the kicker…………..Husband finds the corkscrew in the floor and part of a cork in the floor. Ask son who is play his beloved Play Station 2 if he has any thing he would like to tell us? Son- “No” Dad- “Really? Son- “No” Dad- “what did you use this corkscrew for?” Son- “To open the beer.” Dad- “What about this cork?” Son- “What cork?” Dad- “This cork.” Son “Oh, THAT cork. I drank some wine too.” Dad- “Well I hope you enjoyed that because it cost $120.00 a bottle!”
LET THE YELLING BEGIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That’s right my 13 year old son drank a bottle of Dom Perignon champagne- 1995. PUT IT BACK IN THE FRIDGE WITH PART OF A CORK AND THE LITTLE METAL THING BACK ON TOP! -$120.00.
THAT BOTTLE OF CHAMPAGNE WAS A GIFT THAT WE HAVE BEEN SAVING FOR OVER A YEAR FOR THAT “SPECIAL” OCCASION.
SO I AM MINUS ABOUT $177 FOR THIS WEEKEND LITTLE ANTICS. NOT TO MENTION THE AGGRAVATION OF THE ARUGING, LYING AND DECEPTION. I AM NOT GOING TO PUT UP WITH THAT KIND OF BEHAVIOR FROM A CHILD. EVEN A 6’3” 13 YEAR OR ANY ONE WHO DISRESPECTS ME & MY STUFF.
SO CHILDREN LISTEN UP DO NOT DISRESPECT YPUR PARENTS YOUR FRIENDS OR YOURSELF BECAUSE US PARENTS ARE SMARTER THAN YOU AND WE WILL FIND OUT ABOUT ANY AND ALL THINGS YOU TRY TO HIDE.
I AM SELLING THOS PRIZE possession TO RECOOP WHAT I LOST.
THIS IS NOT THE ACTUAL PICTURE BUT I WILL ADD ONE OF THE ACTUAL SYSTEM WHEN I GET A CHANCE TO TAKE A PICTURE.
HAPPY BIDDING!
source *********************************************************** 06-04-04, 02:44 PM shelster OOOH I love that! I am gonna print that out and give it to each of my kids.
Thanks!
06-04-04, 08:08 PM honilov That's kind of an unusual punishment. I guess that taught that kid a lesson, though. The parents should keep their booze locked.
06-04-04, 08:55 PM jusork Hahahahah! Hilarious!
Dang, that 13 year old's tall though.
06-05-04, 03:03 AM gizmogram Honi? I don't find it unusual punishment at all...when my teenage daughter has misbehaved at various times, either by being with friends using drugs, drinking, or whatever, I have actively LOOKED at her belongings to see what I could deprive her of to make her THINK about what her actions could cost her.
Teens these days that may be fixated on a certain thing, whether it be a Playstation, TV, whatever...SHOULD be deprived of that thing as a form of punishment. And hopefully parents note these things -
and Elexina? I don't blame you a bit...I think you did the right thing! And with mine as well, the PS is the next thing to GO! Straighten up and fly right is what my dad used to say, and now, as a parent of a teen Eek I understand!
06-05-04, 04:11 PM jusork
quote:Originally posted by gizmogram: and Elexina? I don't blame you a bit...I think you did the right thing!
Hmm. What did Elexina do, now?
06-05-04, 06:09 PM mystery250 Hehe. That'd work.
06-05-04, 08:13 PM Sherasi Honi, I don't think a parent should HAVE to lock away their possessions.
That parent was right on the money (so to speak). Having special things is a privilege NOT a right!
06-05-04, 08:26 PM gerry I can't understand why a parent would brag about how "bad" their kids are. I think instead they ought to look at themselves to see what may have gone wrong. I would never talk badly about my child in front of anyone, even if he or she did something wrong. It's no wonder that family values have gone astray. Now that junior has lost his PS2, I wonder if he'll now lay off the boos? Hmmm, I wonder............ well, now, a six pak , 6 bucks, a bugle, 51 smackers, a vintage wine, 120 big ones, my child, ----- PRICELESS.
06-06-04, 06:50 PM honilov Sherasi, I just thought that might be a good idea because so many people DO have locked liquor cabinets whenever there's kids in the house.
Giz, I just thought it was unusual to get rid of it for good. I know people take things like this away for a while to punish kids. It sounds like the kid wasn't taught right in the first place or he would have known he would get in trouble. Sometimes a little teaching goes a lot farther than buying the kid everything he wants.
06-06-04, 09:09 PM gerry Right on, Honi. An open liquor cabinet when no parent is at home at night is an open invitation to many teens, that's just reality. Find me a kid who hasn't tried alcohol before the age of 21, and I'll sell you the Brooklyn Bridge. I don't know why any parent would show the above article to their kids, are they expecting the worst from them and trying to scare them straight? Why not expect the best from them and give them a hug instead? It's far more effective.
06-06-04, 09:36 PM jusork
quote:Originally posted by gerry: Find me a kid who hasn't tried alcohol before the age of 21, and I'll sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.
There are plenty who do.
And you can't expect kids to not stray away from what their parents taught them. And you can't expect them to change to something they do, even though they know they shouldn't, because they want to. I do agree that taking something away from them doesn't make them stop. It just makes them angrier and wish they had it back while possibly being more careful next time.
06-07-04, 08:37 AM MrsS I agree with locking the liquor cabinet,though it was never an issue in my house growing up, but there is no reasonable way for a parent to keep a bottle of champagne, or a few beers cold and still have them inaccessable to the kids....and it is not as if this woman wandered off and willfully left a handful of unchaperoned teens in her home... her kid was supposed to be elswhere, in a reasonably supervised place and I think that she's doing the right thing by making the price of his deceit, thievery and drinking a high price, indeed.
06-07-04, 10:16 AM gerry
quote:Originally posted by MrsS: ... her kid was supposed to be elswhere, in a reasonably supervised place and I think that she's doing the right thing by making the price of his deceit, thievery and drinking a high price, indeed.
The kid messed up, and punishment is in order. But to take that darn thing away for keeps is too high a price. Now he's angry, resentful...and now with all sorts of spare time on his hands to do ......hmmm, more trouble. It's only going to get worse, this happens all the time when parent and child do not reasonably communicate. This punishment was not given for his actions, it was clearly given out of ANGER. Not good!
06-07-04, 01:15 PM teeceeum I'm with MrsS. That's how I was raised. That's how my kids were raised. I and they turned out pretty well. You most often can't reason with someone who has yet to develop the ability to reason. And I think the kid got off pretty cheaply. If he were to do something similar as an adult to someone else I assure you that he would lose more than his Play Station. Teaching consequences must be a part of raising a child.
06-07-04, 01:50 PM gerry We are all products of our upbringing. Those who were punished this way as a child will punish their own the same way. Some kids are brutally beaten by their parents as punishment (using extension cords, cables, curtain rods, fists, etc.,), and these kids grow up, have kids of their own, and beat them in the same way, and say "I turned allright when I was beaten this way by my dad, and this will be a good lesson for you", and they still have respect for their dad who chose to beat them rather than hug them. But my most human standards, it is not right. I'm not trying to compare a beating with a takeaway, I'm just saying that the way we were raised may not have been the best.
06-07-04, 02:41 PM shelster Sorry Gerry, I gotta disagree with you here. As a generation x'er, most of my friends were brought up with the "talk to your kids" mentality. Parents tried to reason with the kids, to boost their self esteem. Look where my generation is now? Most of us were raised by the TV, and coined the term latch key kid.
In raising my children, I looked beyond my mother's parenting to my grandparents. Where certain behaviors resulted in discipline. Not punishment, but discipline.
I don't think the parent in this ebay sale was punishing just the alcohol issue. This kid was disrespectful of another's property. The kid wasted his parents property, and he needs to learn a lesson about that. Its a lesson that is rarely taught today. How many kids will roll their eyes if they wreck a car and actually have to pay damages? Its called consequences. That parent was out money, by the kid drinking their stuff, and why shouldn't the teen be made to take responsibility for his actions?
06-07-04, 03:22 PM gerry The kid, Shelster, should take responsibilities for his actions, but what should the consequence be? I'm a baby boomer, and when my son was in the 7th grade, he was caught with a can of beer in his school locker. I suppose I had the option of beating the crap out of him, taking away his TV (didn't have no playstations then) for a week, or a year, or even forever, (as you would apparently do), however, none of these options crossed our mind, he had a good talking to instead, and he turned out just fine. Maybe you Xers are a different breed.
06-07-04, 03:38 PM Elexina
quote:Originally posted by honilov: The parents should keep their booze locked.
That is one option, yes. But the kid knew what he was doing was wrong and he did it anyway. He deserved to be reprimanded. I would probably lock away my valuables if I had children (though I would probably worry about my children's friends more than the kids themselves) but the issue at hand is that the kid was out of control and needed to be jarred back into reality. The forfeit of a Playstation ought to do that right well.
quote:Hmm. What did Elexina do, now?
Good question, Jusork. Maybe Giz thinks this was my punishment to my child? The only "child" in the house is my husband and he's old enough to drink. But I WILL take away his PS2 if I get home and find he hasn't done the vacuuming!!
06-07-04, 03:51 PM teeceeum
quote:Originally posted by gerry: We are all products of our upbringing. Those who were punished this way as a child will punish their own the same way. Some kids are brutally beaten by their parents as punishment (using extension cords, cables, curtain rods, fists, etc.,), and these kids grow up, have kids of their own, and beat them in the same way, and say "I turned allright when I was beaten this way by my dad, and this will be a good lesson for you", and they still have respect for their dad who chose to beat them rather than hug them. But my most human standards, it is not right. I'm not trying to compare a beating with a takeaway, I'm just saying that the way we were raised may not have been the best.
I did not beat my children. I did punish them when they deserved it and the punishment was equal to the deed. They also got plenty of hugs and "I love yous". They still do. My youngest is 27, the oldest is 34.
How is it that you learn not to touch a hot stove? Because you eventually discover that hot things hurt. Pain is the consequence of touching it. Consequences are the only things that keep societies civil. That's what laws are for.
06-07-04, 03:52 PM methos
quote:Originally posted by shelster: and coined the term latch key kid.
That term was coined in the 1940s, if not before.
06-07-04, 04:02 PM shelster My apologies Methos, I guess it became "popular" with my generation.
I don't beat my kids gerry. But I do discipline them.
A parent cannot have one form of discipline only. And to judge one parent's form of discipline is not right at all. We don't know all the circumstances. I have taken my childrens toys away when they don't put them away. Somehow, I am not sure how you keep equating that with beating.
06-07-04, 09:14 PM soaringhorse Are we overlooking a huge problem here? Do you see something wrong with this picture? At thirteen, it is not a good thing for this child who is ready to turn into a full raging teenager to be drinking period. I think that there needs to be some concentration on the alcohol issue. This needs to watched closely, because this is way to early for the youngster to begin drinking, believe me, I've been there. As far as disciplining goes, we all have our different standards for raising our kids, but for sure, we need to know exactly what our kids are up to at all times, this includes who they hang out with too. If you feel like the consequences is working, great, but there is also an underlying issue here, too. If the booze is around, then it is way too tempting for some one who wants to drink and party. I know this from my childhood. I've seen my sister drink my parents whiskey, then refill it with water to replace what was drunk. Kids can be very crafty some times, gotta watch 'em!
06-07-04, 10:44 PM gerry Good point, Soaringhorse. I am not equating child beating with much lesser forms of punishment. All I am saying is that consequences must be given for unacceptable behavior, but the consequence must be appropriate. Taking a toy away or PS2 for awhile is fine, but taking it away forever is not. Not as bad as a beating, for sure, but many would opt for the beating and brag about how well they discipline their kids. My kids are grown now, each with their own joys and triumphs, ...and each with their own tragedies. For those of you with young children or teens, punish them wisely but also reward them often. Amen, Amen, I say to you, that in spite of the difficulties they may sometimes cause you, hold them, cherish them, adore them before they depart, for one day soon it will not be so, and you will find yourself wanting, ...more than all the earth...., their return.
06-08-04, 07:25 AM shelster I think my fear here is that parenting is being judged by a post or two, or an ebay sale. One discipline issue cannot describe a lifetime of love, and parenting.
I may spank my child if I think necessary. I may take toys forever. But I will also jump in mud puddles with my kids, hug them, read them stories, and let them know how proud I am of them.
Maybe I am taking this too personally (ok, yes I have a history of doing that) but to flame that "ebay parent" because they are disciplining as they see fit is disturbing to me. We don't know how much love that parent gives.
06-08-04, 09:18 AM teeceeum
quote:Originally posted by shelster: Maybe I am taking this too personally (ok, yes I have a history of doing that) but to flame that "ebay parent" because they are disciplining as they see fit is disturbing to me. We don't know how much love that parent gives.
Completely with you on that one shel. But on the surface it seems to me that those parents are merely making the child pay back the damages done. I see absolutely nothing wrong in that even if it is something the kid holds so dear. Besides, he needs to get up off his butt and get some exercise anyway.
06-08-04, 02:12 PM gerry
quote:Originally posted by shelster: I think my fear here is that parenting is being judged by a post or two, or an ebay sale. One discipline issue cannot describe a lifetime of love, and parenting... Maybe I am taking this too personally (ok, yes I have a history of doing that) but to flame that "ebay parent" because they are disciplining as they see fit is disturbing to me. We don't know how much love that parent gives.
Well if she cared a dime for the kid, she would just sell the thing without letting the whole world know the reason (for punishment). I like the 'no kid of mine is going to touch MY stuff', that sounds real loving, don't it? And then there's the 'works great, ask my son' pitch, said with malice aforethought. And the reference to his 'beloved' playstation that she will take away. Hey, look, this woman ain't all there, it is all so very clear, perhaps because I've seen so much of this poor parenting in my lifetime. Sure, the kid needs to be punished, but mother dearest ought to also look in the mirror first.
06-09-04, 03:09 AM puppyblues I think what she did was GREAT! If every parent did that, kids would probably think a little harder before they did stupid things. A little embarrassment isn't going to kill him. He's only 13, his parents still have a chance with him.
Kudo's to this parent!
06-10-04, 02:01 PM DorianGreyed "This beloved machine was his prize possession." "Selling Son's Beloved Play Station 2..." (Emphasis mine - DG)
There are rights and there are privileges. Taking away the the son's privilege to use the Pay Station (possibly until the loss of money is recouped in some way) is one thing; taking away something that belongs to him is another. I am certain that the boy learned something, but not exactly what the parents intended to teach.
06-10-04, 03:43 PM Elexina Gerry, this parent posted the story but not specifics. The child is not exposed to the world. Dorian, the PS2 may have belonged to the son, but who bought it? We donm't know. There are a lot of things we don't know about this. It may not even be true!
I just posted it because I thought it was kind of funny. Yow.
06-10-04, 04:14 PM soaringhorse Okay, time out, we are getting a little carried away here about what people are saying in their post here. Gerry is quite right on the issue that if you are very harsh on your children, (this includes severe punishment) then there will be repercussions from it. I am a example of that, and will not ever forget some of the ways things were done around my house. But I survived, and learned from them. Theres the issue of trying to teach your kids the right way to do things and then try not to hurt them (mentally or physically) at the same time. But most of the time, the parents just don't want to deal with it, it takes too much time, and they just want the situation to stop, so therefore they decide that some kind of punishment is better than nothing. Well, it is to a degree, but I really think it depends on each little situation. Measure out how bad it was, and then you and your child should come to some conclusion as to what the consequence should be. I really hate the word, PUNISHMENT, anyways. It sounds so harsh. I really think this was one of those times where the parent and the child need to be counselled, because there's more than just the child doing wrong here. The parent shouldn't have let it get this far. Jeezil Petes, a bottle of Dom just sitting around, is like too tempting, lol. Don't get me wrong, the kid shouldn't have touched their stuff in the first place, but if the boy wasn't interested in drinking in the first place, he would not have even thought about touching his parents stash. See what I mean? I just think the standards that each parent shows is so different for each family. What you may think is okay to do, may be someone else thinks it is totally against the rules. So there will always be different opinions on raising children, but like Gerry says, don't scar them for life, because they may not come back once they spread their wings and fly.
06-10-04, 08:18 PM DorianGreyed "Dorian, the PS2 may have belonged to the son, but who bought it? We donm't know." - Elexina
"May have?" We were given the information that it belonged to the son. It "may have" been a gift, or the son "may have" purchased it with his own money, but how it became the property of the son isn't important. The game was clearly his. Whether this is a real or hypothetical situation isn't important for discussion purposes. An opportunity to demonstrate how to show repect for another's property was totally missed by these parents. Instead, they sank to the level of the behavior they were trying to discourage. Children learn far more by what a parent does than by what a parent says.
06-11-04, 12:06 PM teeceeum Who owned the bugle, beer and Dom? I don't think they belonged to the kid, yet his actions did deprive their rightful owners of their use. I have absolutely no problem with taking his PS2 away from him as a consequence of his actions. It was made clear that grounding or other forms of discipline simply did not work. What he got was the kind of result he can expect as an adult in the real world if he continues with his behavior. The courts do that kind of thing all the time. And at 13 it's time he started to learn adult lessons in an adult manner. Yes, I definitely think that you sit down and talk to him about it and that you let him know that you love him, but you still have to make him responsible for his actions. Something that not too many people are so keen on these days.
06-11-04, 01:59 PM shelster Amen TCM!
06-11-04, 02:00 PM puppyblues Exactly what I was going to say, TC. Smile
06-11-04, 02:30 PM DorianGreyed Unfortunately, adherents to the "eye for an eye" method of rearing children are in the majority, but I knew that from the daily news.
30
06-11-04, 02:44 PM babthrower I think a punishment that takes away a toy is appropriate -- for children and for adults. What if instead of putting people in jail the state took away their toys? For a traffic offence, half their CD collection. For a sex offense, 10% of their wages garnisheed for the next 10 years. For selling drugs, their wheels.
"But I need my wheels to get to and from work!" "Take a bus." "But there is no bus to my work!" "Pay a co-worker to pick you up." "But I can't afford it!" "You could afford to run a car, couldn't you? Next case."
Then the courts could sell their stuff and spend the money on helping victims.
I was pretty permissive with my kids. This worked well when they were small; they were very attached to me and wanted to please me, so I could reason with them. Later, though, in their teens, they were more anxious to please their peers than to please me. I didn't punish them when they skipped school or abused alcohol. I reasoned with them. Two out of three became drug/alcohol abusers, and had a tough time getting clean. I think if I had it to do over I would have given some punishments to them as teens, so they would have learned more self-discipline, and they might have been spared the consequences they had to face as young adults.
06-11-04, 03:23 PM MommyTimesTwo I like the punishment but not the putting the story on e-Bay though. Because then the punishment is not just losing the PS 2 but also humiliation, and I don't personally feel that humiliation should be used as punishment.
You know, in How to Win Friends and Influence People, Dale Carnegie talks about how all you have to do to get people to do what you want is find what they want and give it to them. This parent lost a prime opportunity here. They could have doled out PS 2 time to keep the kid in good behaviour.
06-13-04, 06:50 PM teeceeum Some people prefer to tell others how not to do it without ever offering an alternative. But what do I know? I don't have a Linotype® keyboard.
07-08-04, 10:06 AM doñadiana I have a problem with the whole thing. The parent seems to be more concerned with the monetary value lost than with the moral crisis this child may be going through. Someone mentioned the fact that this child may have a drinking problem and may be running with a bad crowd. These are the underlying problems. Also there is the fact of deliberate lying and deception that no one seems to see as a problem. The message seems to be: Lying is o.k. if you are smart enough to get away with it. stealing is o.k. if you are smart enough to get away with it. Drinking is o.k. if you are smart enough to get away with it. I lost my PS2 because I wasn't smart enough. Next time I will be!
Frankly I hope this is just a hoax because I don't think that selling the PS2 is going to solve this family's problems.
DD
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
Posts: 4494 | Location: Rochester, NY, USA | Registered: 06-03-02
"The parent seems to be more concerned with the monetary value lost than with the moral crisis this child may be going through."
It's all about consequences, DD. They know the behavior was wrong, and so we can assume did the child. To assume the child has no notion the behavior was wrong is to very unfairly and without evidence condemn the parents of giving the child no moral guidance at all.
The question seems to be, is it right to take away the PS2 and embarrass the child on eBay?
1. Is it right to take away the PS2?
Well, let's look at how our justice system works. If I steal a car and joy-ride it to destruction, is it right that I should have to sell my own car to pay back the owners when I am caught? Or should the owners take the loss, so I will not be deprived of my 'prized possession'?
I'm afraid the majority feel that one should take the consequences for one's actions. That boy is 13. He can get drunk and impregnate a girlfriend at that age. It's about time he learned about consequences. Nor should we feel afraid that he will get mad and hate dad if he must lose a material thing, a 'treasure', in the process. It's true that this is possible. But if we protect our children from consequences out of fear that they will get mad and do worse, then we might as well throw in the towel, parentally speaking. Children are clever. They will sense the parent's fear and press that button forever after.
2. Embarrassing the child on eBay? Are you serious? Who the heck would know the child on eBay? Furthermore, again in our system, embarrassment for wrongdoing is a consequence. In school, the child may be assigned detention. His classmates know. At home, the child may be denied telephone privileges for calling 1-900 numbers, and his friends will learn of it when they try to phone him. In the court system, the adult gets his name in the paper when convicted of an offense.
(I am replying to Gerry above, I'm not picking on Donadiana. Below, however, I am picking on her!)
She says "Also there is the fact of deliberate lying and deception that no one seems to see as a problem. The message seems to be: Lying is o.k. if you are smart enough to get away with it."
How unfair of you to say that, DD. The parents in question, who sold the PS2, said they were making their son feel consequences for his "destructive, deceptive and disobedient" behavior. *************************************************** 07-08-04, 12:13 PM CincyOnTheRoad I don't have a problem with the taking away of something, but I don't think the permanent taking away of something is very good.
Yesterday, I was fishing with my son and my brother-in-law. My son, who is 7, decided to stop listening and start running around. I took his fishing pole from him and put it back in the trunk. His attitude changed immediately, but not because I took the pole- but because he knew if he could behave, he'd get that pole back.
I think deprivation is a good idea for punishment, but I think it should be temporary, and contingent upon improvement in behavior.
07-09-04, 12:40 AM DvdGStwrt Actually, having thought long and hard on the subject, I think that this method of punishment is far, far better than being thrown up against a wall or being beaten with fists - things which I got for far less crimes in my youth.
Since spankings, the belt across the buttocks, shouting, Mom slap to the back of the head are illegal, the parent is left with having to find new and inventive ways to demonstrate consequences for actions.
This is new and inventive and though embarrassing for the kid may leave a lasting impression which may curb the behavior. We can hope.
David
07-09-04, 09:58 PM gerry
quote:Originally posted by DvdGStwrt: Actually, having thought long and hard on the subject, I think that this method of punishment is far, far better than being thrown up against a wall or being beaten with fists - things which I got for far less crimes in my youth.
Since spankings, the belt across the buttocks, shouting, Mom slap to the back of the head are illegal, the parent is left with having to find new and inventive ways to demonstrate consequences for actions.
This is new and inventive and though embarrassing for the kid may leave a lasting impression which may curb the behavior. We can hope.
David
David You surprise me with your response. Am I understanding you correctly when I interpret your statement on child beating that if it were legal, it'd be OK? Please say it ain't so. I can't believe the number of kids I have met, many with parents from countries where beatings are common, who have been beaten with sticks and curtain rods and cable and extension cords and you name it, or forced to kneel on a floor covered with uncooked rice for hours at a time. It's disgusting. Even worse, I can't believe the number of parents I've met who abuse these kids this way, justifying it by saying, "this is the way my dad beat me, and I'm all the better off for it!". The cycle is endless. 07-10-04, 12:00 AM Sherasi I don't think he meant that Beating your child should be legal. But he was making an extreme example that parents are so often targeted for almost ANY kind of corporal punishment that they have to be more creative to get their point across.
I, myself, was beaten as a child. I know that it really wasn't that effective a deterent for "bad" behavior. I rarely use physical punishment for my own boys, but the main problem today is, since kids feel equal to adults and are not learning that bad decisions have consequences, how DO you discipline?
07-10-04, 01:31 AM DvdGStwrt
quote:Originally posted by gerry: David You surprise me with your response. Am I understanding you correctly when I interpret your statement on child beating that if it were legal, it'd be OK? Please say it ain't so. I can't believe the number of kids I have met, many with parents from countries where beatings are common, who have been beaten with sticks and curtain rods and cable and extension cords and you name it, or forced to kneel on a floor covered with uncooked rice for hours at a time. It's disgusting. Even worse, I can't believe the number of parents I've met who abuse these kids this way, justifying it by saying, "this is the way my dad beat me, and I'm all the better off for it!". The cycle is endless.
Uh no. There is a big difference between beating a child and spanking a child, or giving the old mom slap to the back of the head - Beating, in my books, is where it leaves bruises, broken bones, cuts, wounds and permanment scars.
Abuse is when the child is getting spanked for minor things - places where standing in the corner, or manual labor (Mowing the lawn, chores without pay, etc) would be more effective. There are somethings that a bit of corporal punishment is a working solution say the tenth time the kid has done X and standing the corner, manual labor, etc haven't gotten the point home.
In fear of crossing a boundry, most parents are terrified to apply the belt to the buttocks. Scared to raise their voice, fearful that "ABUSE!" will be screamed at the littlest of thing.
07-10-04, 11:51 AM babthrower Let's try a thought-experiment to put this in perspective.
Let's say your 14-year-old has been convinced by friends that he should go to a rave (concert) in another city. A carload of them is going, and they will be away overnight, unsupervised. When you refuse him permission, he says that he will go, he must go, all his friends are going, you are cruel to deny him, etc., and what is more, he has bought the tickets, and will go whether you like it or not.
On the night in question, you order him to his room. You hear an odd sound on the roof, and see that he has climbed out of the window and is preparing to jump from the roof to a tree, and shinny down it.
Do you
(a) reason with him, as follows:
"My child, you have no idea how your disobedience wounds me. Please reconsider, and do not undertake this reckless adventure. There could be drug use and drinking and sex, and we really doubt that you are emotionally mature enough to handle such issues. There is also the issue of unsafe driving consequent upon the above behaviors. Reflect, I pray you. Stay at home safely with your family. You will thank us some day."
If he says, "Thank you, because due to your parental guidance I now see that my impulsive behavior was irresponsible. My friends' plans to get high and drive to the rave and then hang out in the park all night were ill-advised. I will return to my room now, and finish my homework," you may feel justly proud of yourself. If he says instead, "You're so out of it, you don't know what my friends will say to me if I don't go. They can't stand little wimpy guys that let their parents boss them around. You want me to destroy all chances of teen happiness that remains possible to me, just because you're paranoid. I'm outa here," then you sadly let him go. As he takes off, you shout after him, "Son! Please reconsider!" but to no avail.
(b) Collar him and put him back in his room by physical force and nail his window shut and sit outside his bedroom door all night long. Tell him he is grounded and denied TV and video games and everything, in fact, except meals, school and homework, until he shows a significant attitude adjustment.
Keep in mind that choice (a) is approved by everyone, particularly the mealy-mouthed, whereas choice (b) involves (i) physical assault and (ii) kidnapping and unlawful confinement.
07-10-04, 12:55 PM gerry Thanks, David, I feel better.
In regards to your question, a) won't work in the short term, and b) won;t work in the long term. Pray that he gets back alive, then ground him for a month. If that doesn't work, you are forced to file a CHINS against him, the social services and the courts will get involved, and who knows where it goes from there. Sometimes, we look for solutions, but there just aren't any.
07-10-04, 02:32 PM babthrower You can forget social services doing anything better than an average parent can do. We have cases here in Canada where distraught parents called for help and the child was put into a group home. The child would go missing from the "supervised" group home, and the absence was not reported to parents, and only routine efforts made to locate the child: report filed, no action taken. Some months later the child pops up in another city, a drug-addicted street person. There was no supervision worth the name under social services.
Add to that that all institutions, including Social Services group homes, attract the requisite number of pedophiles, just as surely as flies will go after honey once they know where to find it.
Parents are far from perfect, we know that. But except in unusual cases, they do love the child, and do their best to bring them up right. Turning them over to the school or the state will not produce a better result. Evidence shows that in general institutions do not provide as good care as the average family provides.
A school for the deaf in Vancouver was found to have been rife with sexual abuse and other forms of bullying, and the children had no recourse. The authorities to whom these complaints were reported covered up the allegations, and issued the accused staff members with warnings only. Parents were not notified. Some children who complained were punished. These were children who had committed no offense other than to be born disabled. It took over ten years for action to be taken by the various government ministries involved.
If parents sometimes get a bit forceful with their children, at least the children are not being allowed to follow their own immature impulses with regard to education, drug use, sexual behavior, driving automobiles, and other behaviors which they may not be prepared to handle.
07-10-04, 08:35 PM jusork
quote:Originally posted by babthrower: Let's try a thought-experiment to put this in perspective.
Let's say your 14-year-old has been convinced by friends that he should go to a rave (concert) in another city. A carload of them is going, and they will be away overnight, unsupervised. When you refuse him permission, he says that he will go, he must go, all his friends are going, you are cruel to deny him, etc., and what is more, he has bought the tickets, and _will _go whether you like it or not.
On the night in question, you order him to his room. You hear an odd sound on the roof, and see that he has climbed out of the window and is preparing to jump from the roof to a tree, and shinny down it.
Do you
(a) reason with him, as follows:
"My child, you have no idea how your disobedience wounds me. Please reconsider, and do not undertake this reckless adventure. There could be drug use and drinking and sex, and we really doubt that you are emotionally mature enough to handle such issues. There is also the issue of unsafe driving consequent upon the above behaviors. Reflect, I pray you. Stay at home safely with your family. You will thank us some day."
If he says, "Thank you, because due to your parental guidance I now see that my impulsive behavior was irresponsible. My friends' plans to get high and drive to the rave and then hang out in the park all night were ill-advised. I will return to my room now, and finish my homework," you may feel justly proud of yourself. If he says instead, "You're so out of it, you don't know what my friends will say to me if I don't go. They can't stand little wimpy guys that let their parents boss them around. You want me to destroy all chances of teen happiness that remains possible to me, just because you're paranoid. I'm outa here," then you sadly let him go. As he takes off, you shout after him, "Son! Please reconsider!" but to no avail.
(b) Collar him and put him back in his room by physical force and nail his window shut and sit outside his bedroom door all night long. Tell him he is grounded and denied TV and video games and everything, in fact, except meals, school and homework, until he shows a significant attitude adjustment.
Keep in mind that choice (a) is approved by everyone, particularly the mealy-mouthed, whereas choice (b) involves (i) physical assault and (ii) kidnapping and unlawful confinement.
I like A. I like it a lot actually. I think more people should say that whole thing. If anything, it'll get the kids thinking what you're thinking more because you put so much expression into it and it shows why you're saying it (because you're worried). It shows the kids your worriedness instead of your acting on your worriedness. They wouldn't see you as someone who just wants to hold them back. And, if anything, they'll most likely at least respond with a thought out response for wanting to go.
07-11-04, 01:05 PM babthrower Hey, anything's possible, Jusork. Big Grin
Poor parents, they probably just act according to their temperament, and just 'wing it'.
07-14-04, 11:07 AM gerry Nice response, Justin. Babthrower, you are mostly 100 percent correct about the group homes,except that a percentage of kids will always run in spite of the best supervision, the homes are not locked facilities, and a kid can run with not too much difficulty, if he or she is so inclined. They usually come back in a day or two, voluntarily or via police escort. You're right about the percentages of pedophiles attracted to these facilities, but most are not sexual predators as such, they are control frieks who enjoy punishing the kids and legally restraining them. As I said before, the parent looks to the State for help, but solutions sometimes are just not there.I've worked in these facilities, and you know what's surprising? The kids want to be back with their mom, no matter what the difficulties are at home. If parents would only realize how much their kids need them, then we'd ahve our answer.
07-14-04, 02:15 PM babthrower Back with their mums? Perhaps they might want to be back with their dads, too, except that so often these men are absent. The mothers are less likely to abandon their children.
The point is, though, that those most likely to care enough for the kids are the parents. Of the parents, the one most likely to care for the kids is the mother.
Odd how we will spend much public money, a lot of it wasted, in trying to salvage these kids after their family life had been disrupted (and that usually due to parental ignorance, and the kids taking advantage of that), yet we don't teach young people parenting skills. It's easier to find a young person who has been taught the correct way to rear and train a puppy than the correct way to rear and train a child.
A lot of the skills are applicable to both. Reward good behavior positively. Punish bad behavior without cruelty. Be utterly consistent. Don't ever reward bad behavior.
I think that last is crucial. I have seen mothers give in to a child in a store, and buy it the toy or the junkfood treat it demands. At first the mother refused, but the child's begging, tears, tantrum, prevailed, and the parent finally gave in. "Oh, I can't stand this any more, all right," one said.
This teaches the child that if he/she is really persistent, and escalates the parent-torturing behavior, the parent will be worn down and give in.
When a teen, this same acting-out behavior will win the child the freedom necessary for drug, alcohol and early sex experimentation. Now the child is bigger, stronger, and knows how to play two very powerful cards: that the parent has sexually abused the child, or that the parent has beaten the child. The child may then be placed in a group home, with its consequent exposure to other disaffected teens and its greater opportunity for contact with those (both inside and outside of the group home) who will gladly exploit the child. The child is easily exploited by those who would play on its sense of entitlement and its sense of deprivation.
Children and teens are by definition immature. It is typical of immature people that they blame others for their bad choices.
Charles Manson said to America's parents:
"Most of the people at the ranch that you call the Family were just people that you did not want, people that were alongside the road, that their parents had kicked out, that did not want to go to Juvenile Hall. So I did the best I could and I took them up on my garbage dump and I told them this: that in love there is no wrong. . . ."
This assumed nobility of purpose covered the fact that he manipulated these girls and became their pimp. In return for their sexual favors ("love") granted to others, as a favor to himself, Manson tried to establish his own musical career -- and failed.
[In revenge against Terry Melcher, who had rejected Manson's demo tape, he sent them to kill Melcher. But Melcher had rented the house to Polanski and Tate, so Manson's pawns murdered the wrong people.]
Manson's address to the jury was full of self-pity, and completely failed to take any responsibility for his own actions and his influence on his followers. It was this mood of self-pity, which spoke of the cruelty of America not only to himself, but to the 'garbage people' (Manson's term) he picked up along the way, that set the tone.
Of course the killer girls lapped up this rationalization of their behavior. Why not? It excused anything they did, and depicted them as victims themselves. I wonder if during their long years of imprisonment any of those girls ever wished they had stayed at home and avoided the kind of behavior that got them 'kicked out' (Manson's term) of their homes.
Leslie van Houton's parents were a schoolteacher and an autioneer. Leslie was rebellious at home and had an abortion at 14. But she did finish high school and attended secretarial school. She was never 'kicked out' of her home. She joined Manson's cult at age 19. She stabbed Ms. LaBianca sixteem times in the back.
Patricia Krenwinkel was the child of an insurance salesman and a stay-at-home mother. She graduated high school but dropped out of university in her first year. When she joined Manson's cult, it was the credit card her father had given her that subsidized their travels for a while. She stabbed Abigail Folger numerous times.
Susan Atkins' father was a truck driver and her mother worked part time doing market surveys by telephone and similar jobs. Both parents were somewhat alcholic. After her mother died of cancer she lived with an aunt. She moved to San Francisco to find work, and quickly became involved with the drugs-and-sex trades. She met Manson when she was 19. She stabbed Voytek Frykowski and held Sharon Tate down while Tex Watson stabbed Tate repeatedly. She wrote "PIG" using Tate's blood on a door.
Tex Watson was the son of a gas station operator. His mother did not work outside of the home and the family business. Tex did well in high school and in sports. At university he began drinking and using drugs. He dropped out in his senior year and moved to Malibu. He started selling drugs. He met Manson and moved to the ranch. One night he and Manson went out cruising for someone to kill. Later Manson ordered him to lead the raids on the Tate and LaBianca homes. He took part in every killing. Then he and Manson killed a ranch hand.
Linda Kasabian left home at 16 because she couldn't get along with her stepfather. She got into the drug scene and visited communes all around the country. At 20 she joined the Manson family and began doing b&e's for Charlie. She witnessed the Tate murders and ran away from the ranch at the first opportunity. She turned herself in after the Manson arrests and gave evidence against them.
Even though she was present at the first set of murders she was given immunity for her testimony.
So. What do we conclude about the business of parenting?
07-15-04, 06:11 AM gerry
quote:Originally posted by babthrower: When a teen, this same acting-out behavior will win the child the freedom necessary for drug, alcohol and early sex experimentation. Now the child is bigger, stronger, and knows how to play two very powerful cards: that the parent has sexually abused the child, or that the parent has beaten the child.
There will always be a small percentage of teens who falsely claim parental abuse in order to gain their 'freedom', however, kids seldom lie about this issue, they have nothing to gain by doing so. When a child claims physical abuse (more than a spanking or head slap), it is most often true. When they claim sexual abuse, it is just about always true.
07-15-04, 10:49 AM babthrower I hope you don't think I was saying that neither physical abuse (beatings, etc.) exist, nor that sexual abuse exists. But it occurs in the minority of families. One estimate done by an experienced professional for example is that sexual abuse occurs in 6% of families. (This does not include a 'playful' slap on the buttocks as sexual abuse, though it may be such, or it may be perceived as such; this includes acts of an unequivocally sexual nature.) The percentage of families where sexual abuse by stepfathers occurs is at least twice that rate.
But there have been too many documented cases of false claims of physical or sexual abuse, or both, which later turned out, sometimes because the child regretted the false statements and wished to make amends, to have been false, and made for the purpose of getting away from parental control. The device of making such false claims was in some cases suggested to the teen by friends who were already living away from the parental home. Here, under our social services programs, teens have been set up in their own apartments without any adult supervision at all, as a result of making such claims. In other cases, teens have been placed in group homes.
Making false claims is not just unfair to the parents; but it jeopardizes programs designed to proctect teens who really do need protection. But to understand, or to care about, the consequences of making false claims, requires a degree of maturity, and it is the lack of maturity which causes the teen who lies to lie in the first place.
So what does one do? It is sometimes very difficult to determine the truth. Well, at the very least the alternate accommodation offered to the teen should be not such as to offer strong rewards. See 'Don't ever reward bad behavior' above.
So protective facilites should be run like a boarding school, with dorms, study halls, etc; no internet chat sites (some teens have left home so they can be free to meet people they chatted with, and some of these 'friends' are much older pedophiles). The dorms or group homes should not be co-ed. During the school months, the rule should be that the students are in dorm every week night. Weekend activities should be approved or supervised activities. Breaking rules by using drugs or alcohol or having unprotected sex should be met with being confined to dorm after school for a specific period. Breaking rules by running away should result in being sent to a more secure facility.
I suppose these suggestions will cause you to classify me with the "control frieks" you referred to, Gerry. That's okay with me, the label doesn't matter.
It seems to me that allowing teens to behave as adults as regards making choices about substance use, sex and having babies, and whether or not they wish to attend school, carries such grave risks for the teens themselves and for the future of the whole culture that someone has to take responsibility. Some kids in question aren't up to it and some parents either don't know how to or are scared to.
07-17-04, 07:18 AM soaringhorse I want to tell you something I experienced last summer that is related to this topic. We were canoeing in a very popular whitewater river in Indiana, and there were a lot of people there on a hot summer day. Actually, my boyfreind and I have our own Kyack's (sp?) and we saw alot of drinking of course. This goes hand in hand unfortunately. But anyways, this young boy was being shouted at and harshly treated as we were paddling by a island that alot of people were on partying. The parents were drunk. The father told the boy that if he didn't stop what ever it was he was doing, that he would smack him with the paddle. Well, he did several times, and you could hear the kid scream in pain alot. I was shaking my head, and afterwards the boy with a young girl came paddling by talking about how he hates his father, that his dad always does this when he's drinking, and that he was going to get out of it, run away. What would you have done? I just couldn't let it go, I spoke breifly with him, beings we were in moving water, and we couldn't just sit down and talk. I said, "I know this is your dad, but if he's hitting you like that all the time, while drinking you need to tell somebody. Even if its a teacher, a adult freind, police,whoever....This should not be happening all the time." I know I was stepping in but it did make the boy a little at ease, because he was really upset. I think he just wanted someone to recognize his pain. I just am wondering ....How many people out there think this type of punishment was okay? I, myself, think not. There's other ways to get a point across. And as previous post have said, yeh, they may take this child to a home, and eventually he will go back to his parents. But it will give the parent time to think about it, and maybe stop the chain of abuse. But then again, the parent may even punish him worse for ratting on him. It worried me alot, aftewards because I just prayed that the boy got help without the father finding out about it, and even hurting him more. Do you think I was wrong for telling him this?
07-17-04, 07:26 AM shelster I don't think you were wrong at all. I hope I would have had the same courage.
07-17-04, 11:27 AM babthrower Bless your heart, Soaringhorse, of course you were not wrong. You can't know the outcome, sadly it is as you say, the outcome may not have been all good. But by giving the boy correct information, you have done these things:
1. validated his sense that he was badly treated; this will reduce his frustration
2. opened a door for him. A teacher or counsellor or the police officer to whom the case is referred may be able to make the parent realize that his brutality is wrong, and he should get his drinking under control.
We can only hope that the boy did not have to leave home either as a runaway or into a shelter. Sometimes parents respond well to a wake-up call.
It is to be hoped that the parent would realize that the boy did not 'rat' on him. It was his own behavior, not the boy's, which led to your giving him the information.
Regardless of the outcome, the information you gave him is what is being given to abused children in schools and in the media. So it is not your fault if it turns out badly.
Happy kayaking!
07-17-04, 11:18 PM gerry Babthrower
You must have strange laws in BC. A child here is never taken away from their parents if they make a false claim of abuse against their parents in order to gain the 'freedom' of a group home, or the possibility of independent living. All parental abuse/neglect claims made by the child or an other adult mandated/non-mandated reporter are fully investigated by the social services department. Only if they are substantiated would the state get involved. If the child ends up in a group home, he or she may be there due to substantiated abuse, parental neglect, running away from home, stubborness, incorrigibility, parental concern, parental desire to have their child so placed, etc., etc. I've never met a kid in a group home who was placed there solely based on a false claim of abuse. In fact, I've never met a kid who wanted to be there, very few like the rules, structure, discipline, staff, early bed, etc. Regarding the 'control freaks', no, you are not one of them for the punishments you suggest. I'm talking about the ones who enjoy punishing the child for the smallest of reasons, like sending him to bed at 6pm for swearing (that's OK), but when he complains about the punishment, then giving him 3 more nights of 6pm bedtimes, or 48 hours confinement to his room (NOT OK!). Or antagonizing the kid so much that he becomes agressive, so that they then can throw him to the floor and sit on him until he calms down (an illegal maneuver, by the way, but quite common, I'm sorry to say). Physical restraints are sometimes necessary, for the safety of the child and others. Most of the time, however, they are not necessary, and done only to give a macho staff some pleasure over having a victory over the kid. I've never sen a proper restraint yet from those power freaks, I call them pedophiles because of the enjoyment they get from the infliction of punishment and pain on the children.
07-18-04, 08:07 AM soaringhorse Thanks shelster and babthrower, I really did want to just help since I was in the same boat (so to say) when I was a teenager. I had to call social services myself, and report abuse from my mother due to alcohol. This was after I had run away for the fourth time, and it was really a plea for help. Which I think it worked out okay, I think it made them aware of what was going on. Not to say my folks didn't stop drinking but they realized they were being watched. This was such a horrible time in my life, and I think I wouldn't have wanted to get married just to get out of the home if I had a more safer place to live. That's why I harp on the alcohol so much, it can really have repercussions not just to the one who abuses it but to the children too.
08-06-04, 12:01 AM Wildflower63 How to Punish your Child As far as the paddling incident goes, I wasn't there to see what dynamics went on. Rafting can be a dangerous sport. It may be a kid plenty big enough to know saftey and was endangering everyone. If that were the case, it wouldn't matter if I had a beercan in my hand or not. With a paddle in my hand and the only thing I could reach my son with, he would get hit, probably more than once. To my view, any child old enough to understand and has been taught safety who is endangering everyone needs drastic action immediately. I don't see this as a 'time out' situation at all.
With a minor breach of rules, that endangers no one, I do not see it necessary to repeatedly hit a kid with a paddle. Next trip, he may not be going, if he doesn't straighten up now.
I don't see most parents as abusers of loved children. I believe a few make it hard on the majority to parent our children. I have been pushed to the limit, by my kids, who will even say that they will report me for child abuse. Today's kids know they can practically get away with murder or it is considered abuse.
When I grew up, I would have gotten blasted with that paddle for anything seen as disrespectful and no one considered this abuse and neither did I. My parents are not abusive, but believed in diciplined kids.
Things may have been too harsh, when I was a kid. Today, I believe things are too lax and the majority of kids I see, including my own, are a bunch of spoiled brats that don't get a wack when they are begging for it.
08-06-04, 10:17 AM babthrower Originally posted by soaringhorse:
"...this young boy was being shouted at and harshly treated as we were paddling by a island that alot of people were on partying. The parents were drunk. The father told the boy that if he didn't stop what ever it was he was doing, that he would smack him with the paddle. Well, he did several times, and you could hear the kid scream in pain alot. I was shaking my head, and afterwards the boy with a young girl came paddling by talking about how he hates his father, that his dad always does this when he's drinking..."
Soaringhorse may correct me if I'm wrong, but I gather from this that safety in a canoe was not the issue that resulted in the boy being beaten with a canoe paddle.
I inferred that the boy had done something on shore to annoy his drunken parent, and that later the boy was canoeing, and that is when Soaringhorse spoke to him.
Here are some guidelines:
1. Drunks have a tendency to irrational rage and violence. They should never discipline their children either verbally or physically when their judgment is impaired.
2. Striking a child with a canoe paddle is never appropriate. Never. Even if the child's behavior is in breach of water safety rules and regs. Notice that the parent did not 'prod' the child, but struck him not once but several times, and with such force that the child screamed.
I believe in discipline not only of children but of one's own urges and impulses. The violent urges and impulses of drunken people should be controlled; and if the drunks themselves cannot control their own behavior, then some authority should do it for them. Unless such bad parenting is (at the very least) labelled 'wrong' then the child will grow up to abuse his own children.
08-06-04, 08:56 PM soaringhorse The kid was surrounded by a group of people who were all indulging in alcohol. He was on shore with his parents, who were definitely drunk. This happens all the time while canoeing, I've been seeing it too much, each time I go. They bring their coolers, party on water and off, tip their boats, lose all their beer, Big Grin and just about drown Mad It is pretty sad to watch, but then I've been there, done that. PS:As for the way the child was abused, babthrower is absolutely on the mark on this one. I know from being abused myself, by alcoholics, it doesn't mix with parenting. And this cussing and cursing at them doesn't float either, I think it just teaches them to cuss.
08-15-04, 07:34 PM Cyndiluwho_99 I'm curious to know how many of you have actually raised kids to successful adulthood?
Show of hands, please?
08-16-04, 08:31 PM soaringhorse I have a soon to be eighteen year old, who is a senior this year. Going to be a long year here for me, I have to get him ready for college. Being's I'm a single parent, it makes it doubly tuff. In reply to your question, Cyndiluwho, I guess I'll say that he's not totally an adult yet, but close. In four months he'll be legal, anyways. But I'm not going to toot my own horn, let's just say he's finishing school, not doing drugs, and he hasn't gotten into any trouble. He's not doing the best he could in school, but he isn't doing bad either. He's a "B" average student, which I (and so do the teachers) think he can do better. I try not to harp on him too bad, but he's a boy, and just tries to skim by, and does't want to apply himself. He's been a good kid, and is growing up so fast. Boy time goes by so fast!
08-17-04, 01:27 PM teeceeum 3 of them. 2 went to college on scolastic scholarships (thank heaven!). All are doing very well.
08-19-04, 12:24 AM Wildflower63 Cyndi, it isn't about how you raise your kids at all. The majority of us have at least an average intelligence. This has nothing to do with success in life either. Keep in mind, money does not equal success. We can have a successful life without a college degree or a ton of money. It is an individual choice, the definition of life success.
From my experience, before puberty sets in, your child is usually reasonable to handle. Teen issues are very different and you never know what to expect, no matter what you taught them or how they were raised.
Kids can be fantastic and quickly turn into a parental nightmare, once puberty hits. It really is like someone dropped them on their heads, they change so drastically and quickly.
Parent's, who tried, cannot take credit for adult child's successes. Parent's, who tried, cannot accept your adult child's difficulties, when clearly taught better, as a parenting flaw, which they will blame themselves for. Be fair to yourself with this!
We all have the benefit of education and parental teaching, with very few exceptions. We are all reasonably intelligent and can do anything we wish, in life. It is a matter of individual choice defining personal success.
With reasonably equal exposure to education, why aren't we all grand successes? Because of personal choice, only. It is not about parenting at all. It isn't about intelligence either. We are all reasonably intelligent and equal with opportunity. We all had choices and made them.
Don't leave out the Nature vs. Nurture psychological issue ever! We all are a product of given genetics, with social influence. We have traits, such as stubbornness, that we, as individuals make a choice about how to act on. We all act on free will, within cultural influence.
There is no magical way of parenting your child for success. I have two teens, but they are so drastically different in ways of thought and behavior, just as their looks are different, due to genetics. Both, genetics and social climate, have an effect on how any individual will make a choice. There is plenty of scientific evidence to back this theory, but nothing has any definite influence at all. Read about the Nature vs. Nurture theories and you will see.
The young people of today should never be taught conformity. They need internal understanding of ethical reasoning, for every decision they make, only. The rest is up to our youth to chaise their wishes of life, where we cannot define success or failure at all. You are wasting your own time asking other parents, with successful young adult children, what they did or did not do. Everyone is an individual and has to be treated as such.
Don't be shocked when you teach your kids conformity and they end up working for someone like my son, a problem child who thinks for himself only. People like us get hit very hard, with reality, and we grow stronger. Society gives the non-conformist a beating every day, but we live through it and gain personal strength and confidence. We refuse to give up our own ideas and thoughts for someone else's, when they know nothing more than we do. You cannot be among the weak at heart to live this, but it does bring success, in many ways.
You can and do get into a lot of trouble questioning and challenging and do pay a price, but learn and grow stronger, with every single bash or just give up believing what others tell you. This is the painful price you pay for individuality, most unfortunately.
Never mistake a kid with bad grades as not intelligent, ever. Many are highly intelligent. I have always wondered exactly how intelligent a person can be, with good grades, but do not question authority and social norms, who I call conformist.
Your high school grades suck and so do you. You are stupid. This is a message of insanity to tell any young person! Adults take school grades as a reflection of intelligence. Adults that are highly intelligent think they are stupid because they did not thrive in the public school system. This sickens me.
The supposedly stupid and problematic do grow up and have been beaten and feel no fear, that conformist often do. Non-conformist have been beaten down, but get right back up and expect arrogance. When teaching our youth to be conformist, you teach them to follow, not lead. Conformist were never taught this, so how can they lead?
When all a young person, with good grades, and no true beatings, in life are taught conformity, all they know is conformity. People like my son and myself can easily manipulate this for our self gain and do every day. I understand the importance of independent thought, in the work place and am arrogant there. It gets me everywhere. I fought hard for it.
I am talking about people who are taught to conform or get parental punishment for having ideas of their own, which are often warped logic, but they think. A few are able to do this, but not most. They work for non-conformist that everyone gave up on and fought hard and long, which the easy kids never experience.
Parents! Never give up on your children. Never believe that what a teen our young adult does to screw up their future is a lasting thing. It isn't, if you don't give up on them.
Don't mistake your successful high school student, who has never given you much of a problem as an assured success. Often, they are arrogant, with such pride, from parents. They think things in life are too easy. Don't make them try or they quit. They are complacent.
This is something life has taught me. I would like to ask a question also:
How many members or children of members were a nightmare to deal with and became successful beyond what you or family thought possible? There are many!!
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
Posts: 6257 | Location: British Columbia, Canada | Registered: 06-11-02
