I have two thoroughbreds, a gelding (17h, fox-Irish-Arab) and a mare (16h, Anglo-Arab) who is now about 7 and still a virgin. The gelding is bomb-proof, but she is rather skittish and face shy and I was hoping that if I had her covered and she had a foal or a filly, she would perhaps calm down a bit and be a little more approachable. At the moment catching her is almost impossible. One has to box her in with rope and slowly move the poles in on her until she gives up and allows a halter to be put on her. Once caught, she is an absolute lamb.
Anyway, I asked the guy I bought her from if he knew of any thoroughbred stallions and he found one, but then began to talk of having to tie her to a pole and have her twitched so that she would take the stallion.
He said that is normal with thoroughbreds. I must say that this was news to me, but then I have only previously worked with warm-bloods. Anyway, I told him that I feared that this would hardly make her any less face shy and I was just not interested.
He said that it would be far too dangerous to let a thoroughbred mare be covered naturally - is this true, or is he (a former professional breaker man for a racing stable) just used to a more 'industrial' way of doing things?
I might add that I have a good knowledge of animals in general and am something of a dog and horse whisperer and we rescue Great Danes that are deemed otherwise too wild, neurotic and-or dangerous to be kept by by 'normal' families. I have learnt to never hurt an animal or have the animal expect pain from you. It only serves to make things worse and breaks any tie that the animal feels towards the person. ********************************************************** 05-14-06, 09:53 AM babthrower How long have you been in the horse game? I ask because a gelding is a horse that has been 'gelded', or castrated. So if you have found a breeder who is prepared to have his stallion impregnate him, I think you can safely go ahead and give it a try. By the way, don't leave your wallet unattended when that breeder is nearby.
An option would be artificial insemination. The stallion deposits sperm into a receptacle and the vet does the transfer.
Au naturel, the stallion won't be interested, and there will be no violent 'courtship' ritual, in which the mare (if he were a mare) would kick and play coy until her desire overcame her aversion and mating occurs. The danger is not to the mare but to the stallion. The stallion will keep coming at a mare in estrus until mating occurs, and her kicking and biting only seems to make him more determined.
By the way if you want to check whether the 'gelding' is a mare or not, check him/her next time urination occurs. If from the rear, it's a girl. If from the belly, it's a guy.
05-14-06, 09:55 AM FredPuli Welcome to AP !
I think that the twitch is a barbaric device, but who knows what goes on behind closed doors? ( I've never seen one used in Newmarket but sadly that may not prove a lot ) . I've heard of a leg-strap being used to stop a mare kicking out. The concern is naturally for the safety of a valuable stallion with a strange mare, but that's only because he's the one who earns the money Big Grin) Can't have him off work lame. In a truly industrial world we'd have artificial insemination with horses just as we have with prize boars and bulls, but try persuading the racing industry of that .
People who do know are to be found at The National Stud in Newmarket. Not only do they keep star stallions at stud there but they also run courses in stud management so they must have someone, a teacher or staff member, there who can advise, even on the phone Wink They know best practice and they know what is done. My experience of the racing industry, when it comes to information and advice, has always been positive be it Tattersall's, Weatherby's, the old Jockey Club, the National Horseracing Museum or the Animal Health Trust in Newmarket.That last may also be worth a try.
Good luck !
Babs do use Smile Wink Confused or Big Grin please. I had to read the first post three times before I saw what you were on about over 'she' and 'gelding'. It made (and makes) perfect sense to me as written. Smile
05-14-06, 10:44 AM babthrower As I read it, he wanted his gelding impregnated, else why mention it? If I misunderstood him, I'm sorry. Actually I thought (and think) the whole post was a send-up because the poster's name, byre, means a cow barn. I took that to be a clever synecdoche - byre for what it famously contains besides cows. Who calls himself a cow barn?
05-14-06, 11:06 AM FredPuli The Byre: ignore the Canadian element around here Big Grin (Even though the rest of her post is right ):
quote: Originally posted by babthrower: Actually I thought the whole post was a send-up because the poster's 'name, byre, means a cow barn. Who calls himself a cow barn?
I call myself a Hungarian sheepdog, so I've got no chance on here Big Grin.
Byre, I think we British horsey-types (note Newmarket in my address Wink ) should stick together. I stand by my original suggestion in response to your problem and hope it's helpful.
The name makes me think of 'buyer beware' but that's just me.
05-14-06, 11:32 AM babthrower Yes, we Canadians can sometimes be rude and crude. We notice that horsey types do stick together, especially in close quarters such as byres which are mucky! Razz
05-14-06, 12:44 PM The Byre I can assure you that I do need advice and this is not a send-up. I use the name Byre because I run a recording studio by that name and am member of several forums also by that name. For those that doubt, go to www.the-byre.com and check us out.
I have been in the horse game long enough to know that my experience of twitching has always been negative. It may work at first, but the horse remembers (even if some of them do have the IQ of a shoebox) and alters its behavior accordingly.
It may not do it straight away, but it has always happened - at least it has always happened to me - therefore my question.
05-14-06, 04:25 PM babthrower
quote: I have learnt to never hurt an animal or have the animal expect pain from you. It only serves to make things worse and breaks any tie that the animal feels towards the person.
quote: I can assure you that I do need advice and this is not a send-up
Okay. I believe your question is, "Is the experience of being 'twitched' negative and likely to traumatize the horse?'
So here are some assumptions.
1. The former professional breaker guy with the stallion wants the stud fee. 2. Same guy wants to avoid risk to his expensive stud. 3. Same guy is a businessman and so time is of the essence of any transaction.
Question: In the scheme of things, how important is your mare's emotional state after the breeding is done? (a) of paramount significance (b) of minor significance (3) he couldn't give a toss, he's got the fee.
As to whether 'twitching' is traumatic, you might try this experiment.
Get the breakerman to place a a loop of cord around your top lip, and snub it tight and twist the handle around until the loop has grabbed tight on the lip causing it to look like a ball with whiskers on it. You will find that to pull against this device is not at all pleasant since in any mammal the muzzle area is rich in nerve endings so it is very sensitive. Then have him raise the device so that if you move in any direction the tension of the device will increase.
Now the former professional breaker guy will have an assistant leap upon your back; he is a little heavier than you are, by the way. Now the breaker guy will have his assistant insert an object into one of your orifices, and vigorously repeat the action. Then the assistant decamps and the twitch is removed.
Mind you, you have reason to believe that under some circumstances the insertion of the object can be satisfying. But not under all circumstances.
Do you think that this experience is likely to increase the mare's sense of trust, make handling her any easier in future?
You know the answer to your original question.
But if the twitch is used humanely by someone who gives a damn, and if she has not been inhumanely twitched in the past, it might not have lasting effects.
Have you looked around to find more options? I find it hard to believe that artificial insemination is not available.
05-15-06, 06:25 AM The Byre Quote ______________________________________________
Get the breakerman to place a a loop of cord around your top lip, and snub it tight and twist the handle around until the loop has grabbed tight on the lip causing it to look like a ball with whiskers on it. You will find that to pull against this device is not at all pleasant since in any mammal the muzzle area is rich in nerve endings so it is very sensitive. Then have him raise the device so that if you move in any direction the tension of the device will increase.
Now the former professional breaker guy will have an assistant leap upon your back; he is a little heavier than you are, by the way. Now the breaker guy will have his assistant insert an object into one of your orifices, and vigorously repeat the action. Then the assistant decamps and the twitch is removed. ______________________________________________
That sounds like my first mairrage!
05-15-06, 08:36 AM babthrower Big Grin
05-30-06, 10:44 AM dangergurly9 I was just wondering if there are different breeds of horses in Scotland than in the U.S.? I have had horses all of my life and have never heard of a Thoroughbred who is 17 hands and fox-Irish-Arab..wouldnt this be a cross or mixed breed? And the mare is an Anglo-Arab? Either way if she is that skittish she simply needs time spent with her and work one on one.When she shys from something you do..do not stop doing it..waving your hand in her face for example because if she jerks and flips out she thinks that is all she has to do to win and make you stop.She will eventually stop doing it.DO NOT hit her in the head by any means! Wink A horse is like a child,they need repetitive work, daily even if you only have 10 min to spare.If you take the time and work with her you will have a "bullet proof" mare in no time.
06-14-06, 08:30 AM piggins Sounds to me like this mare has you buffaloed. Some horse’s are quite clever at avoiding being caught. I’ve seen horses use skittishness as a bluff when they didn’t want to be caught. When she avoids being caught she is saying in her language that you are not boss and is proving it by not being caught.
Always pick days to work, ride your horse when you have plenty of time to spend. Any time a person is in a hurry to ride, etc. . . They take short cuts and horse’s learn very quickly what they can get away with and soon undesirable habits are developed and then they begin to explore other areas in which they can become in charge instead of its handler. To begin, if you have the gelding in the same pen, remove him and put him else where. The boxing in method that you are using is a game and it puts her in charge of when she will decide on who and when she will be caught. I would have you not do this method anymore. Do this instead.
Enter her pen with halter and lead in hand, and start walking towards her, if she runs... let her. Do not run after her, it will only fuel her to run more and faster and you will be wore out and give up . Your horse then no doubt will say is equine language.... wheeeee that was fun!! and do a victory lap. Just keep walking towards her until she stops and allows you to approach her. It might take you an hour or so the first time. This will let her know that you are serious and determined to catch her and once you do she should stop challenging your authority. And each time after that it will take less time to catch her.
Once you have caught and haltered her, go about your business with her. You can give her a treat as a reward.. But not until after you done haltering her and the lead is snapped to her halter. Avoid using treats as a bribe. She will learn that she does not have to cooperate unless you have a goodie and if for some reason later down the road there is a situation in which she needs to be caught in a hurry and you don’t have a goodie. You will be up a creek without a paddle. <\__~
This message has been edited. Last edited by: piggins, 06-14-06 10:06 AM
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