In a quick news flash, I heard that a bankruptcy judge ruled that tithing money (usually 10% of one's income given to the church for God's work) is not an exempt expense allowable when one is making bankruptcy calculations (or something like that). Too bad I have not yet seen the case. Did anyone hear about this? Do you think that the judge overstepped the Constitution and civil rights laws when he virtually prevented religious persons who claim bankruptcy from practicing tithing? Is this an intrusion on religious practice, or is the judge justified, or both? *************************************************** 09-18-06, 05:21 AM juanruiz See here about it
09-18-06, 07:43 AM Elexina Makes sense to me. Pay for necessities first, like food, rent, electricity, actual debts... then when your life is in order you can go back to charitable donations and other extraneous expenses. It's just a shame that it takes a judge to remind people where their true responsibilities lie.
09-18-06, 01:01 PM frankvan Just one more instance of the historically foolish practice of diluting the church/state separation by according preferential treatment to "religions" in general. Contracts are signed legal obligations, enforceable by law. Tithing is a voluntary matter of faith and conscience - not binding on taxpayers or creditors in general. IMHO.
09-18-06, 05:11 PM FredPuli Is there a tax benefit to the payer in this 'tithing'?
Which churches or religious institutions in the States have the tithe, at a certain percentage, as an obligation of membership?
As an aside, it is really strange, for a Briton, to read the words 'tithing' or 'tithe' in a modern context. We have ancient tithe barns,built long ago for the storage of the, originally, tenth part of the crop but the tithe to the church went in the 1530s, when the government of the day took it instead (how's that for 'church and state' Big Grin ?). Later it became payable to some landlords as a sort of rent but had practically gone de facto by the late C19.
09-19-06, 04:17 AM tsaeb Here's the part which gets me. . . . Tithing is supposed to not only support the work of the Lord but also to bring a multiplied financial blessing to the tither. So how is it that the couple had been tithing and now needs to claim bankruptcy? I think that they had been lax in their tithing and now, having been forced to claim bankruptcy, are trying to make it up to God lest their financial situation get even worse. Or, maybe they are trying to buy from God a turnaround in their financial situation. What, they couldn't have done this instead of claiming bankruptcy? I do not mean to be sarcastic, but I certainly would love to know what are the statistics on the finances of tithers and non-tithers, at least among those professing to believe in the professed benefits of tithing. Perhaps the judge smelled some hypocrisy.
09-19-06, 06:40 AM juanruiz
quote: but also to bring a multiplied financial blessing to the tither
You've been listening too much to the "sow a seed" tv evangelist shysters.
09-19-06, 07:26 AM Elexina
quote: Originally posted by tsaeb: ...but also to bring a multiplied financial blessing to the tither. So how is it that the couple had been tithing and now needs to claim bankruptcy?
If this is the case, then it is indeed an excellent question. How, too, is it that people who pray the most seem to be in the worst health and have the most misfortunes? Fascinating. Regardless, where does this "multiplied financial blessing" idea come from? I don't think I've ever heard that one before.
09-19-06, 07:44 AM juanruiz
quote: where does this "multiplied financial blessing" idea come from?
Rob Parsley, Mike Murdock, Bennie Hinn, Jimmy Swaggart...
09-19-06, 07:52 AM aminator2002 Last time I checked 10% of nothing is nothing.
09-20-06, 02:57 AM tsaeb It is written that one can pray "amiss." That does seem like a pun: one scores "a miss" when one prays incorrectly.
Otherwise, it is entirely possible to believe and pray for an amount of money to come and experience that exact amount coming or to believe and pray for a particular malady to be cured and experience that malady instantly cured. I can only attest to what I have myself experienced repeatedly. If you can stand it, you know which posters have bugged me over the years, and the fact is that either they have all disappeared or now interact favorably with me.
To everything there is a season, even the seemingly impossible. I suppose that you naysayers have not had your season of unwavering faith with at least one positive declaration regarding what will come to pass.
09-20-06, 07:23 AM Elexina
quote: Originally posted by tsaeb: It is written...
Where? I'm not trying to be hard-headed, I'm just looking for some real sources here.
quote: Otherwise, it is entirely possible...
Many things are entirely possible. That doesn't mean they happen.
quote: I suppose that you naysayers have not had your season of unwavering faith with at least one positive declaration regarding what will come to pass.
Assuming I am one of these naysayers, certainly I have had experiences where positive things have come to pass. That doesn't mean I shell out my money to a silk-and-satin gold-encrusted priest rather than pay my electric bill.
09-20-06, 07:45 AM juanruiz
quote: you know which posters have bugged me over the years, and the fact is that either they have all disappeared
A whole bunch of posters, good, bad, and indifferent to you, have disappeared...all on their own volition (unless they were banned for their own actions).
09-20-06, 11:26 AM DorianGreyed "(unless they were banned for their own actions)."
To the best of my knowledge, the number of people banned (other than those that joined just for the purpose of placing an ad for some bogus product) is miniscule, and is most certainly in the single digits. There has been only one suspension that I can think of since I became one of the owners.
09-20-06, 11:53 AM juanruiz
quote: miniscule
I know that; I could only think of one...maybe two. But I felt I had to mention the category to cover all the bases.
09-20-06, 03:04 PM VelvetVoice Actually, if a Christian has to declare bankruptcy, that means several things: they are not good stewards with what God has given them, the Pastor or church they attend is not giving them proper guidance, they have never really given control of their lives to God.
The only thing I can say is that it probably is a good thing to ban tithing in this instance. However, hasn't there been a tightening on who can declare bankruptcy? I would hesitate giving control of my life and money for the next seven years over to the government.
Ami said it the best, though, I have been laughing since this morning: Last time I checked, 10% of nothing is nothing.
09-20-06, 03:19 PM DorianGreyed "Actually, if a Christian has to declare bankruptcy, that means several things: they are not good stewards with what God has given them, the Pastor or church they attend is not giving them proper guidance, they have never really given control of their lives to God."
I think that most bankruptcies are due to overwhelming medical bills. If so, then, generally speaking, there was little the person could have done to avoid being in great debt. -------- A bit later -
In 2001, 1.458 million American families filed for bankruptcy. To investigate medical contributors to bankruptcy, we surveyed 1,771 personal bankruptcy filers in five federal courts and subsequently completed in-depth interviews with 931 of them. About half cited medical causes, which indicates that 1.9-2.2 million Americans (filers plus dependents) experienced medical bankruptcy. Among those whose illnesses led to bankruptcy, out-of-pocket costs average $11,854 since the start of illness; 75.7 percent had insurance at the onset of illness. Medical debtors were 42 percent more likely than other debtors to experience lapses in coverage. Even middle-class insured families often fall prey to financial catastrophe when sick. - Health Affairs, giving the abstract from a Harvard study ---- I was close. -------- A recent Harvard study found that (1) medical emergencies contribute to almost 50 percent of bankruptcies, and (2) most people who go broke due to illness do so despite having decent jobs and insurance. - ThinkProgress.org
09-20-06, 03:29 PM juanruiz
quote: I think that most bankruptcies are due to overwhelming medical bills.
Don't know what the statistics are, but I do know that credit card debt is a major contributor to bankruptcy.
09-20-06, 05:31 PM FredPuli What's a medical bankruptcy? Doesn't the world's richest country provide healthcare for its citizens? Wink Being serious,what does happen to those who are sick but can't pay their medical bills? Somebody must treat them , surely?
09-20-06, 06:07 PM DorianGreyed From my second link above -
Not much of that talk has included examples of how the new law will affect real people. But it should. Here’s how Rose Shaffer, a nurse from Chicago, described her sudden descent into bankruptcy:
A week [after suffering a heart attack], Shaffer received a bill from [the hospital] for the three days she’d been hospitalized. It was for $18,000. Shortly thereafter, [the hospital] began sending letters to Shaffer demanding payment. Then, a summons to appear in court was tossed on her porch…Under pressure from [the hospital] and now behind on her mortgage payments, Shaffer filed for Chapter 13 bankruptcy in December 2002…”The hospital saved my life, but now they were trying to kill me,” Shaffer says.
quote: Originally posted by VelvetVoice: Actually, if a Christian has to declare bankruptcy, that means several things: they are not good stewards with what God has given them, the Pastor or church they attend is not giving them proper guidance, they have never really given control of their lives to God.
The idea that "Christians" are somehow exempt from the troubles and foibles that beset the rest of society is bogus.
There is absolutely no evidence at all to support such a notion.
09-21-06, 03:12 AM tsaeb
quote: Originally posted by Elexina:
quote: Originally posted by tsaeb: It is written...
Where? I'm not trying to be hard-headed, I'm just looking for some real sources here.
Ah, to go back to citing scriptures. . . . What a great idea, and how refreshing to find Elexina (the witch?) being led by the Holy Spirit! Ah. Anyway, I did cite quite a few scriptures in my post over in "Western Religions" on the Pope. Now, see what you (God) have started!
09-21-06, 07:59 AM Elexina It would be most helpful if you could simply cite your sources, Tsaeb. I won't even bother to address your other comments.
09-21-06, 12:08 PM VelvetVoice Gar: I have said just the opposite. Christians should judge themselves with a harsher rule. My Pastor always says: In regard to bad living, treat non-believers with the Scriptures, treat believers with church discipline. And I am trying to demonstrate that I am not in an ivory tower, looking and condemning people for living. I live my faith and beliefs, otherwise I’d keep my big mouth shut.
Most times I have seen bankruptcy, it is because the people are living beyond their means: plasma TVs, fancy cars and the gas to go with them, Manolo Blaniks, large houses, etc. Most of the people in my church are very modest in lifestyle: secondhand cars and clothes, no cable, half of them don’t even have a television, no cell phones, no computers except for work purposes. And we all live our lives in full view of each other, and rebuke in love if necessary.
Medical bills are a completely different issue. There should be an outcry to the state powers-that-be or to the hospital board or to the public opinion about medical bills. And the church should pray for that person, and help out with bills if they can.
09-21-06, 01:40 PM juanruiz
quote: Most of the people in my church are very modest in lifestyle: secondhand cars and clothes, no cable, half of them don’t even have a television, no cell phones, no computers except for work purposes.
No wonder your church is a hop, skip, and a jump away from the poor house.
09-21-06, 02:06 PM VelvetVoice On the contrary, JR. Ever read 'The Millionaire Next Door'? One of the chapters is called Frugal, Frugal, Frugal. People with money are low-key, and watch the small things. Jesus talks a lot about money in the Gospels, because so many people do the wrong things with it. Besides, Jesus also says "But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal"
09-21-06, 02:35 PM FredPuli Or as we say here "Money can't make you happy but at least you can be miserable in comfort" Roll Eyes
We may assume that Jesus was not down on wealth in itself otherwise He wouldn't have much time for Catholic Cathedrals but would have us make do with a plain room and a bench, not some gilded altar.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
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