It definitely doesn't seem like there is any ultimate purpose. We are here merely as yet another piece to everything that IS. I don't really like the idea that we're actually creating a purpose, a purpose of any kind, just by being happy or achieving whatever goals we may have though. I see it as there being no purpose, and so we choose to do what we want. Doing these things we want don't make our life meaningful, only more enjoyable/happy. The choice of living itself already makes living have some kind of meaning. The meaning seems to just be the fact that we can live and can choose to use it. The meaning of life is that it is there.
I guess you made your poll one-sided for a reason? Are you asking this to help you out with your search? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 03-01-05, 09:27 AM Sarai Jusork- I didn't intend to make it one-sided. Do you think I'm missing some important options? I couldn't think of any other potential purposes for human beings - although I hope to learn some other possibilities.
I admit that I am hoping to hear more from believers than from non-believers, since I already have a pretty good handle on what non-believers will argue (although your comments are welcome - you never know when someone will surprise you. Smile).
03-01-05, 10:19 AM Georgia85 I believe that everyone serves a purpose and personally I feel that my existance is to have a positive impact on others. Many times I have had friends tell me that I told them just what they needed to hear in a time of crisis.
03-01-05, 01:06 PM shelster I have to echo Georgia's answer here.
I do believe there is a purpose. There is so much here in this life to enjoy, to experience. There is beauty to appreciate. There are people to love. Maybe our purpose is just to enjoy what I believe God created for us, to marvel at his work.
There are so many lives out there to touch, to make a difference in. There are people who need a friend, a helping hand, or just to know they aren't alone.
03-01-05, 03:46 PM Fritzzs It dosen't make any difference wether its human life; insect life;, or plant life... The purpose is to procreate and not become extinct.. Plain and simple.... Thats it....
03-01-05, 04:30 PM Georgia85 If that's true then Fritzzs than I am just a useless speck on the earth as I never did procreate Frown
03-01-05, 06:12 PM jusork In a way, continuing is the main purpose in life itself. For life to be, it has to continue and so the purpose really is in a way for it to try to maintain existence.
That's definitely a naturalistic view though. The idea of life is actually a lot of different things. At this point, we'd probably actually be better off not existing so much. Razz I thank you, Georgia, for making my trips to Atlanta have just a little bit less traffic than it could have. Wink
Sarai, eh, "we are playthings for a bored diety" just doesn't seem like the best theistic representation. Heh.
03-01-05, 06:21 PM Sarai Point taken, Jusork. I've edited it. It looks like all those years of being an atheist made me so jaded that I don't even know when I'm being jaded anymore! Smile
03-01-05, 06:26 PM jusork Hehe. Big Grin
03-01-05, 07:24 PM frankvan Something engraved on stone tablets, perhaps? I think as good an answer as I can think of is attributed to Albert Einstein. "A life that is not lived for others is not worth living". Sounds like a purpose to me, and suitable for theists or atheists alike. Wink
03-01-05, 07:39 PM jusork Well, in response to Einstein's quote, I wouldn't say a selfish life truly wasn't worth living. Unvaluable might be a better word.
03-02-05, 11:20 AM Sarai FrankVan - it is a nice idea. I think Mother Theresa said it, actually, although you might be right.
However, I'm not sure I agree, entirely. I think very few people actually live for others. I think most people live for themselves, and help others out of selfish interest rather than genuine selflessness. In fact, I can think of one person (an old friend of mine) who was constantly worried about other people to such an extent that I think it was unhealthy for her. I think few of us have the strength to live a life for others.
Also, I don't think that monks who live in seclusion and spend their life praying and/or meditating are really living worthless lives. However, their prayers and meditation aren't necessarily helpful to anyone except themselves. Depsite that, they might be doing something really admirable, from some perspectives.
03-02-05, 07:30 PM frankvan Sarai, I don't think it matters how many people do it, nor do I think it necessarily implies that one who worries about others needs to neglect themselves. I agree that monks and others who live in seclusion and spend their lives praying and meditating aren't helping anyone, but their intentions are good. They intend to help and that counts as much, almost, as actually helping. I believe that love means sacrifice, but ideally it just doesn't feel like sacrifice if there is no resentment felt or involved. I'm an atheist, my wife is a staunch catholic. She prays for me all the time and is probably convinced that that is why I continue to thrive. Who knows, she may be right!
03-02-05, 07:37 PM Kelleygirl Frank, it was Albert Einstein -- the wording is just a tad different--
"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile."
Thanks, Frank -- what a perfect answer to an ageless question. Sarai, I think that the kind of monks that you spoke of really believe that they are helping everyone in the world by furnishing peace and harmony and positive vibes as to counterbalance the evils that exist.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kelleygirl, 03-02-05 09:11 PM
03-02-05, 08:31 PM Sarai I agree that Frank's answer is a good one (as usual!) Smile.
But it only answers our purpose individually, if we accept it as true. It doesn't answer our purpose on a grand scale.
If the purpose of human beings is to help other human beings, that doesn't fully answer the question. But what is the purpose of the species in general?
As an agnostic with strong atheist leanings, my answer to that is usually "There is probably no purpose for the human race. But since we exist, we have to make the most of it." I think that's probably true. But I can't help hoping there's more to it than that.
Any ideas? (Religious answers are welcome, too.)
03-02-05, 10:15 PM jusork
quote: Originally posted by Sarai: However, I'm not sure I agree, entirely. I think very few people actually live for others. I think most people live for themselves, and help others out of selfish interest rather than genuine selflessness. In fact, I can think of one person (an old friend of mine) who was constantly worried about other people to such an extent that I think it was unhealthy for her. I think few of us have the strength to live a life for others.
I think lots of people act regularly without selfishness. I truly have to say, even if people don't actually usually live for other people (except maybe a few like family), most people will always take an opportunity to help someone if they can. You can see this daily in little things such as holding the door for a stranger, helping someone with a handful, helping someone pick up something, or just being a kind, welcoming person. It seems to me that, next to personal satisfaction, people are naturally as helpful as they can be for others for no reason except to be helpful. I think people often take the opportunity to make something else in the world just a little happier or more likable. People clearly like making things good as I'm sure you've done. Hell, making things good or better is probably the major motivation for the majority of the actions people take to worldly issues and decisions. Do you think people recycle just so they can redeem that money for turning it in? Pfft, I don't even know anyone who recycles like that. I don't think in most of the generosity people give on a daily basis there could even be found an actual selfish motivation involved. What kind of selfish interest could be gained for oneself by, say, helping someone understand something or letting someone borrow something? Altruism seems to only be significantly affected if the person's sense of satisfaction develops a broader space to fill. Other than those unfortunate people who do only that, I think it's clear that people definitely have the strength to do things for others. And like the ideals of the monks, I don't think there are many people who actually avoid causing positive vibes as Kelley says.
Sarai, what if you think about it in terms of a kind of a unity: we are here to affect each other as the whole that is humanity? Or are you looking for a more genuine-feeling ultimate purpose?
03-03-05, 04:22 AM tsaeb The purpose of life is in the Ten Commandments. The first four tell us how to interact with God to His and our blessings, and the last six tell us how to interact with our neighbors to their and our blessings. God told us to fill the earth and multiphy, and it is more important that we multiply His nature in our blessings than that we multiply ourselves. 03-03-05, 09:55 AM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by jusork: Or are you looking for a more genuine-feeling ultimate purpose?
Bingo.
03-03-05, 02:34 PM frankvan I think that, as in most such questions, we are mainly out of synch due to semantics. I call myself agnostic on occasion and atheist on others not because I don't know where I stand but because of what I perceive about the person I'm talking to Some are prompted to become disagreeable and others to comisserate. I feel that the distinction is immaterial. Atheist, to me, means that I don't see any reason to concern myself with any supreme being considerations. I don't deny that there is something, or many things, I don't understand, but I see no reason to believe something in the absence of any evidence, just because many otherwise reasonable people seem to. Faith, in the absence of evidence or scientific proof, is perfectly acceptable to those who have some reason for belief. For those who believe that they know because they have experienced some 'leap of faith', some revelation, some miraculous event, I am inclined to think they are superstitious, or easily influenced, or un-scientific. They, on the other hand, are entitled to think that I am a poor ignorant heathen who is risking the wrath of his creator. I don't think it is a question of who is right and who is wrong, but I would violate my own conviction that each of us is entitled to the same presumption of equality if I did't consider it essential to accept either interpretation. I have no wish to proselytize or convert anyone. I wouldn't consider it important to join any organization or group with similar beliefs or opinions .Unless a belief is freely arrived at it is meaningless.
Being freed of any religious strictures, I am free to develop my own ethical and moral directions in how to conduct my life. I find that very liberating and, at the same time, very inhibiting. One cannot wish for a code of behavior for the rest of mankind that one is not willing to abide by or adhere to with some 'religiosity'. Whether Einstein or Mother Theresa or Francis of Assisi said some version of what I suggested as a purpose for life, makes litle difference to how well or how badly I explained the concept. What I meant to suggest is that after 82 years of experience from an Anglican baptism and confirmation, through many bouts of questions, reflections, doubts and arguments, I have come to conclusions which I am at peace with. If you take any benefit from my arguments, I am happy. If you reject everything I say, I am no more upset than if I say I love Judi Dench and you hate her guts. Equality is as important as freedom, in my opinion.
In the matter of semantics, I see no real conflict with what Sarai says, that my answer only applies to one individual; that it doesn't answer our puropse "on a grand scale". Isn't looking for a "grand scale" purpose, one that would be equally satisfactory for Tsaeb OR me, unrealsistic? Sort of like looking for the universal solvent or the philosophers' stone? As long as you have reached a resolution acceptable to yourself, by whatver deadline you set for yourself, what more does anyone need ? I don't think we ought to waste time and energy looking for the unattainable "selflessness" that doesn't exist in real life. If you get satisfaction and pleasure out of doing the kind of little services or kindnesses for others that Jusorks speaks of, doesn't that fill a selfish need, an enlightened self interest? I don't think we have arrived, yet - but I think we may eventually get there, if we keep cooperating. I really don't worry about the entirely possible consequences of my being wrong. If a god worthy of the name did exist, I feel sure he would say, of my beliefs," that sounds perfectly understandable".
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
Posts: 6463 | Location: Grayson, Georgia, USA | Registered: 06-03-02
Well the reason you're having trouble, Sarai, (if you can't tell) is because you're thinking about the world rationally with natural logic. You know what to be skeptical about and what not. Yet you still feel like there's something missing, even though you know rationally that there isn't. So you're trying to put a higher meaning into something that doesn't seem to you like there is any higher meaning. This higher meaning needs to feel genuine for you, and so faith clearly won't do it because you'd just be flinging yourself towards a manifested hope; nothing to truly assure its truth and make it genuine. An ultimate force also can't exist as just a natural force in the world because, I'm guessing, that that would feel more like manifesting something simply because you want something else to be found in it. Assuming that you definitely feel unconfortable with suddenly claiming that an ultimate being of some kind actually exists, or even just has a majority of a possibility of existing, this higher meaning has to feel possible enough for you to accept it and it also has to be something that transcends yourself, humanity, and the natural world so it feels like an ultimate meaning. So this is where a lot of thinking is needed and that's what you've been doing. What higher meaning is actually out there or in ourselves that we aren't able to see or grasp?
Well, I've got nothing. Maybe a few questions though to help outline this questioning more. What exactly makes you want to do things? What makes you happy? How satisfied are you during everyday activities? What about when you're doing something enjoyable, are you highly satisfied? If your satisfaction in those are pretty clear and effective, why is it, do you think, that these fully satisfy you by themselves, yet the foundation of life itself doesn't satisfy you? Also, what do you think it is that comes together to form that which is life? Is there something other than just living itself that helps to fully make up life?
quote:
Originally posted by frankvan: If you get satisfaction and pleasure out of doing the kind of little services or kindnesses for others that Jusorks speaks of, doesn't that fill a selfish need, an enlightened self interest? I don't think we have arrived, yet - but I think we may eventually get there, if we keep cooperating.
In a way, yeah, it is somewhat selfish, at least it hopes to come out that way in the end. But it's actually more like doing something in order to make two or more people happy. So it's a good way of being selfish because it's spreading satisfaction, being selfish by letting your satisfaction affect someone else in the process. +++++++++++++++++++ 03-03-05, 05:57 PM MommyTimesTwo I don't think it's right to equate "there is no purpose" and "we make our own purpose" as though they are the same. Maybe our ultimate purpose is to create a worthwhile purpose. Maybe there really is no purpose, and such no point to creating one ourselves. But they aren't the same thing. 03-03-05, 06:38 PM frankvan
quote: Maybe there really is no purpose, and such no point to creating one ourselves. But they aren't the same thing.
I'll accept that they may not be the same thing. But, if there really is NO purpose what better reason than to create one ourselves? If we need one, or think we need one, and there is none available, what other choice is there?
03-03-05, 06:43 PM MommyTimesTwo Well that's what I think too Frank. We don't have to live our lives for some higher purpose. We have to live it for ourselves, and whomever else we choose to place in our priorities.
Yes, sometimes that means that purposes we might see as morally repugnant lead some people. Are they less valuable of purposes? Well, not to the people who hold them. Then we have to look to our society to judge.
But I personally would feel pretty empty if I lived my entire life hoping to please some higher entity who created a random purpose for me, solely to please him or herself. And I would also feel empty if there was no purpose, not even one I made for myself. And since I only have to please myself, I choose to create my own purposes.
03-03-05, 07:09 PM frankvan
quote: In a way, yeah, it is somewhat selfish, at least it hopes to come out that way in the end. But it's actually more like doing something in order to make two or more people happy. So it's a good way of being selfish because it's spreading satisfaction, being selfish by letting your satisfaction affect someone else in the process.
I think the word "selfish" carries a negative connotation in everyday use. I don't think it is necessarily bad. I think it is an unavoidable part of human nature. We are, everyone of us, egocentric creatures who are pressured by society to feel guilty about our self-interest. The difference between good selfish and bad selfish is the result its exercise produces. If my enlightened selfish act results in spreading happiness to others it is good. If any selfish act results in making others unhappy, only an idiot would persist in it. I challenge any reasonably intelligent person to succeed in producing happiness EXCEPT in others. I would go so far as to claim that one cannot make one's self happy except indirectly as a result of giving it to someone else. We have an inescapable thirst to feel proud of what we do and how we conduct our lives, and we can't be happy if we fall short.IMHO.
03-03-05, 08:11 PM MommyTimesTwo How can any human be anything other than selfish? Even when doing what appears to be a selfless act, the doer is still doing it because it makes them feel good. We can only be ourselves and please ourselves, it is how we go about pleasing ourselves that matters.
And no dirty thoughts about that last sentence, either!
03-03-05, 09:56 PM jusork To Frank's last response to me, yeah, I pretty much agree. A selfish can feel right to someone but be wrong for most and vice verse, too. That's why I think it was good you said the result instead of the intention for example. Hmm, then again, there are also some people who feel to make certain people happy, they have to make other people unhappy. Perhaps there are levels then, an act making everyone happy being the best because it makes everyone happy.
As for each of your opposing thoughts on being selfish, I'd have to offer exceptions. Other than that though, I'd have to say that it seems like both of those happen making them more like half and half..er something.
Frank, surely someone could lock themselves in their house for a year and be completely happy growing stuff in their garden, watching TV, working on their Rubiks cube, and whatever wide array of enjoyable things they could keep in their house.
Times2, surely people give money to charity for no other reason except because they know they have money and other people need it. I know when I've got a dollar and someone asks if I want to donate something, I don't have any feeling of desiring happiness out of it. Is this truly how you feel when you decide to donate money to something? And like I explained to Frank's post, I really don't feel like people help others simply so they can gain some satisfaction from it. Selfishness, if any, comes after it's happened and any anticipation of it is realized because of the experience of doing it in the past and simply knowing that doing it will probably make you happy to know you did something good and nice.
quote: Originally posted by MommyTimesTwo: But I personally would feel pretty empty if I lived my entire life hoping to please some higher entity who created a random purpose for me, solely to please him or herself. And I would also feel empty if there was no purpose, not even one I made for myself. And since I only have to please myself, I choose to create my own purposes.
As someone who states that there is no purpose, I have to respond here. I don't see creating my own purpose as really making a purpose. I see it as just a way of living without a purpose. Doing things that make me happy is just what I choose to do without some reason for being here. That's what I was trying to say in my first post. I definitely semi-agree about pleasing ourselves though (okay, no jokes Wink ); it's what matters the most, other stuff next most.
03-03-05, 11:01 PM jusork Here's a free-form poem I recently wrote that shows some more of my thoughts on the subject. I plan on turning it in to my creative writing class soon. Very abstract, no? By the way, if it sounds pretty weak, you should know that I'm taking the class for the short story writing, not the poetry. Wink
Specific
I am my existence. I exist because I’ve always existed. I try to recognize my existence. I try to feel myself existing. I take a form and it holds my existence. It gives my existence power. It allows my existence to fit where I float. My existence interacts. I combine with space and matter. My existence explores space, infinitely large, Yet I still try to understand the space. I harness energy. I allow my existence to become painted. I allow my existence to be used. As it becomes used, I exist here, a small piece in a small piece, My existence sits in the middle, being the piece. My existence, a detail of a detail With its own details. Sitting amongst the giant fusion, Yet I still act like I am the existence. 03-04-05, 08:15 AM frankvan QUOTE: "Frank, surely someone could lock themselves in their house for a year and be completely happy growing stuff in their garden, watching TV, working on their Rubiks cube, and whatever wide array of enjoyable things they could keep in their house." Jusork.
I think that would depend on the individual, and what you consider completely happy. If one is disabled and confined to home - under house arrest, perhaps. But I think that would get old very fast for most of us.
03-04-05, 11:50 AM aminator2002 Does a fish swimming in the ocean have a purpose?
Do all the fish in the ocean serve a purpose?
Does a fish even think about the purpose they serve?
I just enjoy the ride.
03-04-05, 12:21 PM jusork Right on, Ami. Right on. Wink
Yeah, probably so, Frank. It'd be an interesting experiment to try perhaps. 03-14-05, 07:30 PM housewife I believe that our spirits are all children of a Heavenly Father and Mother. We were sent here to earth to be tested. If we pass the test by keeping His commandments, reading and following the principles and commandments found in the scriptures, following His prophets (yes, there is a living prophet on the earth today), and serving others, etc, then we will return to live with Him for eternity. We can be sealed as families for all eternity; that means you'd be together with your family forever, not just 'till death do we part. We cannot be perfect but if we do our best and continually repent of our sins then, through Jesus Christ, we can be saved. If we live worthy of it we can each become Gods and Goddesses with our spouses in the eternities. For more information about or beliefs visit http://www.mormon.org/ I hope this helps. I believe it with all my heart.
03-14-05, 08:07 PM juanruiz Housewife, Welcome. We need an LDS person here. Please stay.
03-15-05 11:51 AM Housewife juanruiz,
You must be LDS as well. Are you? I will stay.
03-15-05, 02:15 PM Sarai Housewife, you may be disappointed to learn that Juan is not religious. However, I agree with him - we hope you'll stick around. The LDS viewpoint is always interesting, and we don't have any regular LDS posters on this board at the moment.
Thanks for your answer to my question, by the way. I'm pondering them all!
Welcome! Smile
03-23-05, 01:13 PM Leppi yes. I think the purpose of human life is try to reach a higher spiritual level and getting closer to G-d, and to be a good person and satisfied with who you are.
12-21-06, 03:28 PM ZIK
quote: Originally posted by Sarai:
The purpose of the sojourn of life is to experience all the potentialities of existence - and learn to harness them beneficially.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
Posts: 6463 | Location: Grayson, Georgia, USA | Registered: 06-03-02
AnswerPool.com 
