While I don't doubt the findings, I would question the article's word of "contributing" to the problems of a society. Correlation does not necessarily equal causation. But it can be turned around and I think it is clear that religious belief is not necessary for a fully functioning society. All societies will have problems. But introducing religion is not an automatic solution to problems.
Comments? ************************************************** 10-31-06, 07:14 PM frankvan I have never believed that religion was necessary for a fully functional society. In fact, I'm quite sure that a fully secular society would function more efficiently and peacefully. So I would agree that the conclusions reached by the author of the study seem plausible. I would just like to see a little more impressive collection of supporting data. The time, effort and money devoted to promulgation of religion could be applied more productively in education.
10-31-06, 07:56 PM juanruiz As long as man cannot accept his mortality, religion will always be among us. Whether it be of the western or eastern strain. And, since it seems that personal belief is not enough, that a believer must also be a proselytizer, convincing others, for whatever reason, that his religion is the "right" one, we will always be confronted with strife and violence.
11-01-06, 04:24 AM tsaeb If religion alone, which many seem to have without God, could change individuals' minds and hearts, then I might agree that we do not need religion, only reasoning. However, it is the God who is known as love who is responsible for the good which we do know in one another and in society when we do focus on the good alone. When we can bring this God to the forefront, then we will have made a better world. Unfortunately, thus far self has succeeded in capturing the forefront even in too many houses of worship. We continue to keep our eyes open for a time in which both believers and unbelievers can realize that their values and goals are similar. Scriptures inform us that all will know God. Whether this will be as a mere intellectual exercise or something more remains to be experienced.
11-01-06, 09:29 AM frankvan
quote: However, it is the God who is known as love who is responsible for the good which we do know in one another and in society when we do focus on the good alone.
Can't enlightened self interest account for the same thing? I am not omnipotent, I like to be secure and free, doesn't it follow that my best chance is treating others the way I want to be treated? Aren't atheists capable of moral and altruistic behavior without the added baggage of rites, rituals, paying homage and tribute??
In sum, countries marked by high rates of organic atheism are among the most societally healthy on earth, while societies characterized by non-existent rates of organic atheism are among the most destitute. Nations marked by high degrees of organic atheism tend to have among the lowest homicide rates, infant mortality rates, poverty rates, and illiteracy rates, and among the highest levels of wealth, life expectancy, educational attainment, and gender equality in the world. The only indicator of societal health mentioned above in which religious countries fared better than irreligious countries was suicide.
In other words, we cannot argue from either end of the statistical spectrum.
http://home.rmci.net/cbolton/atheist.htm Far be it from me to promote an LDS website, I thought his words and conclusions were very interesting, including an experiment: Ask a number of people to imagine themselves as a small, frail, elderly woman whose car has broken late at night in a deserted/bad part of town. You start walking alone down a dark alley trying to find an open gas station. You are wearing an expensive watch and jewelry. While walking down the alley, you hear a group of young men approaching you. There are several of them. There's no place for you to hide and it would be impossible for you to outrun or outfight them. It's deserted. There is no one to hear your cries for help. Would your mind be put at ease if the young men were a group of Mormon missionaries or a Baptists coming home from a Bible study? The answer is obviously yes. We can obviously make scenarios where the woman is Jewish and the young men are Aryan Nation or Hezbollah members, but reality shows that 99.9%+ of society would rather meet a group of devoutly religious people than a group of young men chosen at random from society. Society realizes from what it sees that religiously devout people are more benign and harmless than the average non believer.
In conclusion, I first want to say that not all Atheists are bad or dangerous, and not all theists are good and pure. Atheists often laugh at Theists claiming that they are wasting their time and money going to church. Even if they are right, studies have shown that Devout Theists are happier than Atheists.
"Actively Religious" people feel that there is a purpose and meaning in their lives. Atheists see life as a complex chemical reaction with no meaning. Our living and dieing has no more meaning than the igniting and subsequent extinguishing of a match. Believing that God loves us and has a reward for us in the hereafter gives us security and peace. Atheists MAY be right theologically, but only Theists can truly be happy. And isn't that what life is all about?
11-01-06, 10:05 AM newnickname
quote: Atheists MAY be right theologically, but only Theists can truly be happy.
Ignorance is bliss? Maybe atheists could never be truly happy following a religion, because there would always be the niggling suspicion that they were kidding themselves into a fools' paradise, and actually not facing life honestly.
Theists not only have to deafen themselves to the idea that there might not be a mystical higher purpose, but also to the billions of other utterly sincere and intelligent theists who have existed and will exist, who have different ideas about what that purpose is. What are the chances of having chosen (been born into) just the right doctrine of just the right tradition?
From the original article:
'He said that most Western nations would become more religious only if the theory of evolution could be overturned and the existence of God scientifically proven. Likewise, the theory of evolution would not enjoy majority support in the US unless there was a marked decline in religious belief, Mr Paul said.'
I disagree completely. The idea that evolution and religion are in conflict is almost exclusively a US one (the idea is shared also by some fundamentalist Muslims). You might as well say that the theory of relativity and religion, or the idea of a spherical earth and religion, are in conflict. The overwhelming majority of religious people around the world today accept evolution, or at least belong to religious organisations that accept evolution.
The author of the study does not seem to be comparing religious and secular societies, but only the US against other 'Western democracies'. If he looked at the Islamic states of the Middle East, he'd find very low instances of crime, for example.
quote: 'Atheists see life as a complex chemical reaction with no meaning.'
This is a silly oversimplification. It's like saying religious people think we'll all live on fluffy clouds and play harps after we die, if we're good. Why would an atheist assume that life had no meaning? Do we need a God to have meaning?
This message has been edited. Last edited by: newnickname, 11-01-06 10:21 AM
11-01-06, 10:35 AM newnickname
quote: While walking down the alley, you hear a group of young men approaching you. There are several of them.
This story depends on these being young men. Instead of wishing for some well-scrubbed young Mormon men, why not wish for some doddery old guys or a group of women? The writer is correct, we can obviously make scenarios where a group of religious young men would be the last thing you wanted - how about if the woman were a Sunni and the young men Shia in Iraq? The list of possibilities is endless.
The lesson of the story, in any case, would seem to be that religion is useful for keeping young men in check. Gangs of young males have been a problem in all societies throughout history - has the author of the story unwittingly uncovered the real roots of religion?
11-01-06, 11:52 AM juanruiz
quote: studies have shown that Devout Theists are happier than Atheists.
This is the type of argumentation that drives me nuts. What studies? What was the protocol of the studies? What questions were asked respondents? What controls were in place? etc, etc, etc.
11-01-06, 12:21 PM VelvetVoice LOL, I'm glad it's not my words you take exception to. Damned if I know what makes a better society. Just don't like the condemnation of those 'with God on their side'. Although that could be my persecution.
11-01-06, 07:07 PM frankvan
quote: Nations marked by high degrees of organic atheism tend to have among the lowest homicide rates, infant mortality rates, poverty rates, and illiteracy rates, and among the highest levels of wealth, life expectancy, educational attainment, and gender equality in the world.
from first link.
quote: Even if they are right, studies have shown that Devout Theists are happier than Atheists.
from second link.
There's just no pleasing some people! Roll Eyes
11-01-06, 07:14 PM frankvan
quote: Would your mind be put at ease if the young men were a group of Mormon missionaries or a Baptists coming home from a Bible study? The answer is obviously yes.
Who wouldn't heave a sigh of relief to see they weren't a gaggle of agnostics?? Wink
11-01-06, 09:41 PM JohnGalt
quote: Originally posted by VelvetVoice: Would your mind be put at ease if the young men were a group of Mormon missionaries or a Baptists coming home from a Bible study? The answer is obviously yes.
No, my mind would not be put at ease. Because I know they would likely turn to proselytizing and proceed to tell me how to live my life – just as they do when they show up unannounced at my front door, ignoring my prominent metal, yet tasteful, and unmistakable "No Soliciting" sign next to my door and even then are unable to take obvious hints that I want them off my property ASAP.
11-01-06, 09:42 PM juanruiz They're only doing it for your own good, JG.
11-02-06, 02:12 AM FredPuli
quote: Originally posted by juanruiz: They're only doing it for your own good, JG.
Big Grin Of course they are not. They are doing it for their own good !
11-02-06, 04:27 AM tsaeb
quote: Originally posted by JohnGalt:
quote: Originally posted by VelvetVoice: Would your mind be put at ease if the young men were a group of Mormon missionaries or a Baptists coming home from a Bible study? The answer is obviously yes.
No, my mind would not be put at ease. Because I know they would likely turn to proselytizing and proceed to tell me how to live my life – just as they do when they show up unannounced at my front door, ignoring my prominent metal, yet tasteful, and unmistakable "No Soliciting" sign next to my door and even then are unable to take obvious hints that I want them off my property ASAP.
Big Grin Razz Big Grin Razz Big Grin
11-02-06, 04:28 AM tsaeb
quote: Originally posted by frankvan:
quote: Would your mind be put at ease if the young men were a group of Mormon missionaries or a Baptists coming home from a Bible study? The answer is obviously yes.
Who wouldn't heave a sigh of relief to see they weren't a gaggle of agnostics?? Wink
ROFL
11-02-06, 07:03 AM juanruiz Where could I get one of those signs?
11-02-06, 08:45 AM Elexina I don't know about that one but you can get this one from Northern Sun.
11-02-06, 08:47 AM juanruiz That's great! Thanks, Lexi.
11-02-06, 08:51 AM Anything for you, doll.
11-02-06, 09:13 AM juanruiz Big Grin
11-03-06, 03:21 AM tsaeb Oh, just hang a gigantic pentacle in your window!
11-03-06, 08:13 AM Elexina
quote: Originally posted by tsaeb: Oh, just hang a gigantic pentacle in your window!
That only brings more. Trust me.
11-03-06, 03:44 PM tsaeb Elexina: Yes, when I saw a pentacle from a distance in someone's window, I was moved to walk out of my way and ring the doorbell, but I did not do so lest I be whisked away by a broom-yielding witch. How does one approach the people living in such a dwelling (besides cautiously, which is how most people need to be approached these days)?
11-03-06, 03:52 PM juanruiz You don't. You take what the sign in the window says, and you leave them alone. This is what is called respecting others' beliefs, the same way you would want your respected.
11-03-06, 04:05 PM JohnGalt
quote: Originally posted by juanruiz: Where could I get one of those signs?
Save your money. They don't work.
11-03-06, 04:06 PM JohnGalt
quote: Originally posted by tsaeb: Elexina: Yes, when I saw a pentacle from a distance in someone's window, I was moved to walk out of my way and ring the doorbell, but I did not do so lest I be whisked away by a broom-yielding witch. How does one approach the people living in such a dwelling (besides cautiously, which is how most people need to be approached these days)?
Why would a witch need a doorbell? Couldn't their maigc powers tell them someone was at the door? Or even that someone was going to come to the door? Or that I was going to post this question?
11-03-06, 04:11 PM juanruiz
quote: Originally posted by JohnGalt:
quote: Originally posted by juanruiz: Where could I get one of those signs?
Save your money. They don't work.
You may well be right. Still, it is a cute sign. I like the smile on the believers' face...so innocent.
11-03-06, 04:12 PM JohnGalt
quote: Originally posted by VelvetVoice: Would your mind be put at ease if the young men were a group of Mormon missionaries or a Baptists coming home from a Bible study? The answer is obviously yes.
I could turn the question around and instead of it being a defenseless old lady, have it be a young child. And the group of men coming toward the child could be Catholic priests? Would the child or child's parents’ minds be put at ease? The answer is not obvious. Because just as all Catholic priests not child molesters, there is no guarantee that a person's religion or lack thereof is an indication of potential criminality. Some religious people are evil, most are not. Some non-religious people are evil, most are not. Whatever the causes of anti-social behavior, religion neither causes nor cures it.
But I must say, nearly every History Channel documentary on convicted murderers has the person converting to Christianity behind bars! What's the deal with that? Are murderers predisposed to become Christians? Or are they just trying to garner sympathy to help stave off "Old Sparky" or "Old Squirty" (as Dale Gribble calls it!) knowing that some naïve people (including Governors) will now want to spare their lives just because they are now "Christians"? The cynic in me says it's the latter. These people manipulate others when they commit their crimes, when they try to hide their crimes and when they are caught for their crimes. And pretending to be Christian is part of that manipulation because they know many people will assume the "answer is obvious," in that Christians are good people.
11-03-06, 04:23 PM juanruiz Honest warden, I'm innocent...I was framed. But thank you, Jesus!
11-08-06, 10:12 AM VelvetVoice There is only one instance of bedside conversion in the Bible. I don't think that conversion to Christianity is enough to spring a Christian from jail either. Someone who is truly converted would be pleased to serve his or her time as punishment for their crimes. And they can spend their time spreading the Good News in house.
Or bring him out from under the death penalty. One needs to honor the government and the king, or their authorities. Better to pay for your crimes here than on the other side. Provided that you acknowledge that.
This thread is totally depressing. I think I'll bow out of debates in this forum. You all want to club me to death for my Christianity.
11-08-06, 10:20 AM juanruiz
quote: You all want to club me to death for my Christianity.
I think it more accurate to say they clubbed the material from the websites you posted.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
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