Sounds like we are trying to redefine the term Virgin.
Marriage used to be defined as a union,contract between a man and a woman. Now we are redefinng that term.
I love this new technological revolution, but it is missing some good stuff that the industrial revolution had.
I miss the so called good old days in some ways.

A virgin is someone who has never had genital sex with another person who is of the opposite sex.

On the other hand, when someone decides, after having sex with a member of the opposite sex, that this was not a good idea, and he/she should have no further similar sex experiences until after marriage, that person is said to be celibate. Many people opt for celibacy.

When my kids were teens, there were stories going round, they told me, about teens becoming virgin again if they had no sex for a period of time: six months, a year, and so forth - the times varied.

I told them this was the sort of story someone would tell you if they were trying to coax you to have sex with them.

Similar stories to induce the timid to have sex:

- a douche with fizzy pop after sex will kill the sperm

- sex without complete penetration will never impregnate anyone

- if the male withdraws before or during climax but before climax is complete, impregnation cannot occur

and so forth.

These are all old wives tales. Rather they are soon-to-be husband's tales.

Another good one: if you have "non traditional sex," you are still a virgin in the eyes of God. I never quite understood that one.

quote:

Originally posted by Elexina:
Another good one: if you have "non traditional sex," you are still a virgin in the eyes of God. I never quite understood that one.

It's like you don't inhale, sort of

Good grief. "Reborn virginity" pah!

That is not a possibility.
a person either is a virgin, meaning that they have not willingly engaged in sexual intercourse, or they are not, meaning that, whether it was last night or during the Carter Administration, they have willingly engaged in intercourse.

A person who has had sex can remain celebate for a decade and still never again be a virgin.

Mind you, there is one technical definition of virginity to mention before we put this topic to bed (so to speak )

That is the condition of the girl's or woman's hymen. (Virginity in patriarchal cultures is only an issue for girls and women.) The hymen is a membrane at the outer opening of the vagina. Like earlobes, hymens can be large and thick or small and thin; they can completely close the vaginal opening or only be present at the perimeter. If the hymen completely closes the vagina, it is usually pierced by a nurse so that menses can proceed normally -- but no more than that.

A robust and intact hymen is believed to be an indication that the vagina has never been penetrated. If a man marries a certified virgin and keeps her well guarded after the marriage, he can be fairly sure that her offspring are his lineage.

To demonstrate to family and possibly gossipy neighbors that one's bride comes to the marriage bed in the preferred, non-pregnant state, in some cultures it is the custom to hang the bloody sheets outside the window of the bridal chamber the morning following the marriage.

But the bride would be examined by her own family members or servants before the wedding. That was to prevent mishap and potential family embarrassment. If the woman had a small hymen, the male was not over-endowed, and the lubrication adequate, the hymen would likely not bleed at all, or only a very little; not enough, for example, to make a convincing display on a bedsheet hung from a second-storey window. Similarly if the bride had been playfully naughty with foreign objects, or if she did lots of jumping jacks in sports, or, it is said, rode horseback astride. Or (may the heavens forfend!) had had penetrative sex with the groom or with someone else.

So over time different cultures have figured out ways to circumvent the bedsheet test.

If the groom is not 'in on' the deception, the bride might carry a vial of freshly-drawn chicken's blood to the bridal chamber, and secretly spread this on the sheets. This system worked best before the invention of the incandescent lightbulb. Since then it is necessary to wait till the bridegroom is sound asleep. To this end, the bride's family will no doubt ply him with plenty of wine. And be wary of dramatically profuse displays; someone is overcompensating for something.

If the groom is 'in on' the deception, a specially-prepared sheet can be hidden in the bridal chamber in advance.

This type of technical virginity can easily be restored by plastic surgery.

Lexi says: Another good one: if you have "non traditional sex," you are still a virgin in the eyes of God. I never quite understood that one.

This must be another one of those old wives' tales that men tell you.

MrsS says: a person either is a virgin, meaning that they have not willingly engaged in sexual intercourse,

I never thought about this one. Is a rape victim still a virgin? Technically, they have no hymen. I think Law & Order asked this question of one of their suspects: "if you had the choice of dating one of two twins, then found out that one was raped, which would you choose?" He said that all other factors considered, you'd choose the one who wasn't raped. Is that a true statement?

I wonder how the judgemental standards are when a male is raped by another male. I would think the non-consenting party feels shamed and dishonored.

Back to women:
If penetration has occurred, virginity is gone. In egalitarian cultures a woman is not held guilty of adultery unless she consented at some point. But in patriarchal societies, the non-virgin is an adulterer (in the sense of being defiled, or spoiled) who has lost all status and value unless she is a virtuous wife.

Another way to say this is that only married women can have sex, and only with their husbands, and retain their honor and that of thier families. Her husband and family must disown her if she has had sex outside of marriage. In earlier times, she might join a convent if her family could pay enough for the privilege, but otherwise she would need to become an indentured servant of the sort who don't have contact with the owner's family, i.e. a field laborer, or go into the workhouse. Many just became prostitutes.

This is not exclusively Jewish, Muslim or Christian, although fundamentalists of each of these faiths cling to the old patriarchal values.

The pagan Roman story of Lucretia, the wife of a nobleman, and a virtuous woman known to stay at home and care for her children and her household duties, is interesting. She was raped in her home, after resisting at swordpoint. But when the intruder said he would kill a male slave in her bed and then kill her, thereby dishonoring both her and her family by showing her an adulteress, and worse, having such a debased nature that she would go with a slave, she submitted. When her father and husband learned of this, both tried to comfort her, saying, "It is the mind that sins, and not the body. Where there has been no consent there is no guilt." But she stabbed herself to death, and was much praised for her high principles. This event (509 B.C.) was concurrent with parts of the Old Testament.

The hymen is not proof of virginity, for 3 reasons:
one,men don't have one and surely a man can be as virginal as a woman?
Two: A woman's can be broken in any number of non-sexual ways, most commonly athletic pursuits like gymnastics or horseback riding.
Three: The hymen is not always broken upon first intercourse... a number of women are born with hymens so flexible or that are so narrow a ring of tissue that it is childbirth, not intercourse that tears it... and there is always the possibility that the fellow she gives her virginity to is endowed in a way that he does break even an average hymen.


As to the question of whether or not a rape victim can be a virgin... If not, then my mother, my grandmother, my own heart and my first lover all lied to me... I was raped at age 11, at which time I was most assuredly a virgin and I considered myself one until I chose to be intimate.
Rape is not about sex, it is about power and violence.

We've all been using the term 'virgin' in various senses of the word and so we might as well sort it out.

1 : an unmarried woman devoted to religion
2 a : an absolutely chaste young woman
2 b : an unmarried girl or woman
4 a : a person who has not had sexual intercourse

VV wonders if someone who has not an intact hyman but never voluntarily had sex is a virgin. So in sense 2a, MrsS can use the term to mean 'innocent' or 'chaste' (pure in thought or act).

In sense 4, as Lex and I used the word, the more technical sense, virginity has to do with penetration of a female by a male.

"Open mouth, insert foot."

I meant no disrespect, I was posing a rhetorical question. And you're certainly not the "victim" type, you are self-assured and it sounds like you had a lot of support from females. At that age, I probably would have shut down, since I had many self-esteem issues, and I had no one to tell me the "facts of life".

VV, no disrespect felt, but it does bear mentioning that there is no such thing as a "rhetorical" or "theoretical" question when it comes to rape... one in four women will be the victim of a sexual assault in her lifetime so it's difficult to find ANYONE, male or female, whose life has not been directly touched by such a crime.

And Babs, am I to understand that if one is homosexual, one could have sex 5 times a day for 20 years and yet remain a virgin? (Funny news for a couple of my friends)

quote:

Originally posted by MrsS: And Babs, am I to understand that if one is homosexual, one could have sex 5 times a day for 20 years and yet remain a virgin?

No, because they never have been virgins. That status is reserved for girls and women. Sexual chastity before marriage was rarely required of men, and was certainly never a barrier to a man's marriage.
The word 'virgin' is from the Latin through the French for 'young woman' or 'maiden'.

Of course if they have had sex change operations they may claim that label, I don't know. If so then they would probably become technically virgins when the operations were completed. But not before.

It may well be that common usage now uses the word 'virgin' to refer to males, too, just as it is now common for a man to say 'we are pregnant' meaning that his SigOth is carrying his child. But they always say it with a cute little smirk, which suggests to me that they do not consider themselves actually pregnant, but just participating as fully as possible in the pregnancy.

If it is the case that men describe themselves as virgins these days, whether male virginity can be detected, proven or Reborn, deserves another thread.