Is there a member of AP that knows anyone who has not gotten or lost a job because of an illegal alien? It seems to me that, if all these illegal aliens were taking jobs fron good Americans, then several members here should know someone who has suffered job loss because of them.
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05-18-06, 12:13 PM
FredPuli

quote:
Originally posted by DorianGreyed:
Is there a member of AP that knows anyone who has not gotten or lost a job because of an illegal alien? It seems to me that, if all these illegal aliens were taking jobs fron good Americans, then several members here should know someone who has suffered job loss because of them.



There you have it. The answer may be that aliens "are not taking our jobs they are taking the jobs". That,at any rate, is the catchprase in Britain when anyone complains about foreign labour arriving.It's right, too. They are doing jobs for which it is difficult to find sufficient native recruits because the locals don't fancy that work or because there is an overall labour shortage in the area or because there is a skills shortage and we haven't got enough trained locals to meet demand.
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05-18-06, 07:03 PM
aminator2002
The only thing that I object to is when illegals that don't speak English are coerced by their own country people into working within a US wage control industry for sub standard wages. Of course the owners in these cases take the profits of the difference between what they are paying and what the prevailing wage is or they hold checks or they simply require kickbacks. At times it can be even more detrimental because someone operating in this manner creates unfair competition within the market and can undercut the prices of others.
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05-18-06, 07:29 PM
clarebear
I don't think the job is the problem. I think its the taxes. The US as a whole has lost revenue. In some cases, we are PAYING illegals to be here through charity.
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05-18-06, 07:59 PM
DorianGreyed
If they are made legal, wouldn't they pay taxes, including Social Security? If the numbers are as high as some of the alarmists (including that group that is crying the loudest about the Social Security system failing) have said, surely adding workers would help the SS system. The more I read about this, the more legalizing them makes sense, a great deal of sense.
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05-19-06, 09:28 AM
frankvan
The jobs that most of these illegals are working at, at minimum wages or less, I doubt we're losing much in the way of tax revenue. Even if they pay sales taxes, their minimum standard deduction would probably result in them eligible for earned income tax credit. The result could well be that they would cost us more in lost revenue when they become legal.
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05-19-06, 09:35 AM
newnickname
From the UK: Illegal immigrants found cleaning UK immigration ministry
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05-19-06, 10:08 AM
Rakuchild
I still believe they wouldn't come here if the jobs weren't offered. They know before they leave they will find work here. I don't know anyone who has lost a job because an illegal worker was hired.

As for the language thing- get over it! Deaf Americans don't speak English. Some of them don't even read or write it well despite living here and being educated in the US all their lives. They sign and if you need to communicate with them, either you sign or find an interpreter.

How well would you do as an immigrant to another country? Many of them strive to learn the language but IT TAKES TIME!
I work with a very educated woman who immigrated here from the Ukraine. She didn't speak English when she arrived here a few years ago but she learned so she could attend college. She could get along here, even work in the Russian speaking community without learning English, but she had a higher goal. She is still getting a handle on English and if she can't handle a call, she finds someone who can better understand the caller.

I believe most immigrants, legal or not, desire to learn the language of their adopted country but when you're working at a low skill job for little money, when do you actually have the time to learn more than what's necessary? Do you have time to go to the library and take up the offer of free classes if you're working 12 hours a day?

So get off the language issue! Learn to communicate with others or find someone who can help!
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05-19-06, 10:47 AM
FredPuli

quote:
Originally posted by newnickname:
From the UK: Illegal immigrants found cleaning UK immigration ministry



This gave us all a good laugh though it isn't quite as damaging as it appears. The five workers were picked up as illegals on arrival at work because the Ministry checks such matters (probably to avoid any more embarrassments to the government: who knows whether they'd be so thorough if illegal immigration and 'disappearing' aliens wasn't such a hot-topic this week ? )

The fun here started when it emerged that aliens who were meant to be deported after serving sentences in British prisons were not being and about a thousand had disappeared into the community, including about 150 armed robbers, rapists and other such grave offenders. Then it turned out that nobody knew how many failed asylum seekers there were who were still here and free. After that it has all got worse for the government and more fun for the Opposition.
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05-19-06, 12:33 PM
aminator2002

quote:
As for the language thing- get over it!



I certainly hope that your post is not in response to mine. I wasn't speaking of language problems except in the context that it does allow the people here that can speak their language to take advantage of them. If you've not heard of this issue then I can explain further but it has little to do with me being intolerant of people who don't speak English... I am very tolerant of that as a matter of fact.
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05-19-06, 12:34 PM
hippolips

quote:
Originally posted by Rakuchild:


As for the language thing- get over it!

How well would you do as an immigrant to another country?


I believe most immigrants, legal or not, desire to learn the language of their adopted country

So get off the language issue! Learn to communicate with others or find someone who can help!



................................................

Hi Rakuchild:

Sorry,but I've gotta disagree with you on this one.

If I were to move to Mexico,for instance...

my very First priority would be to learn Spanish!

I wouldn't expect everyone in Mexico to speak to me in English ....just because I couldn't speak Spanish.

How arrogant that would be of me.

Since my wife ,born in this country,of Mexican heritage speaks Spanish,I don't have a problem with not having a Spanish interpreter.

But if I moved to Mexico ...

I'd want to learn Spanish immediately so that I could find my way around...

but more important...I'd want to know what the hell people were saying to me... or about me.

hippolips
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05-19-06, 03:46 PM
Rakuchild
Here's the rub, Hippo-
Learning a language is not an instant process that you can do on the plane trip over. People act as if they expect immigrants to have fluency within hours of coming to the US. Speaking a language and reading a language are two different courses of study entirely. Usually people grasp one before the other. Often people obtain comprehension in a language before they can produce an answer.

Yes, people coming into a country without language skills can be taken advantage of- by those who speak their language as well as those who don't. And anyone who does take advantage of their fellow countrymen/women because they don't have language skills are the same people who would take advantage of them in their home country over some other matter.

My Spousal Dude has helped non-English speakers who utilize the library he works in to straighten out credit card charges and utility bills. The grapevine spread the word that he is fluent in Spanish so they come to him. He's also assisted a Cambodia man whose understanding of spoken English is good but he can't respond well or read/write a response.

If any of us were to locate to another country where we had to learn a new language, it would take longer than the 4 years of Spanish/French/whatever we studied in high school or the 4 quarters in college we picked up as an elective to have the language skills adults are expected to have. So this push to learn English has to be tempered with patience and time and RESOURCES to assist the newly arrived.

In the US, studying a second language is not really required or seen as necessary. This has been a huge mistake as now there is a clear need, especially for Spanish skills. Many people who are screaming "Learn English!" are totally unable to empathize with the challenge. As anyone who has learned another language and achieved a rating of "fluent" from a native speaker (or signer) of that other language knows, the skill takes years to acquire, even if you are immersed in it.
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05-19-06, 07:21 PM
frankvan

quote:
I wouldn't expect everyone in Mexico to speak to me in English ....just because I couldn't speak Spanish.



Do you seriously believe that most, (or even "many), Mexicans expect everyone in the U.S to speak to them in English? Isn't it simple hospitality to try and accomodate the linguistic shortcomings of others, whether from language or cultural differences ? Should we encourage an American image of unnecessary rude and callous behavior toward visitors?
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05-19-06, 08:13 PM
aminator2002
"Yes, people coming into a country without language skills can be taken advantage of"

Yes, some are, in fact, taken advantage of on a daily basis.

"- by those who speak their language as well as those who don't."

I was speaking specifically of the people who run illegal immigrant labor pools and hold checks, take money off the checks, and demand kickbacks.

"And anyone who does take advantage of their fellow countrymen/women because they don't have language skills are the same people who would take advantage of them in their home country over some other matter. "

Yes, but this isn't some other matter. I was speaking of a specific problem (perhaps too vaguely) where workers are treated as slaves or indentured servants because they do not have proper documentation or language skills. They are basically owned by someone that can provide false documents and work... kind of like a Godfather. If they want their money they have to continue to work under false promises of getting it all back.

It hurts them and it hurts other workers. That is the only situation where I see use of illegal workers as a problem because these situations can be well organized and in addition, it's sick. Much different from the majority that just find crappy paying cash jobs.

We used to have some control. I haven't heard of a single fine or penalty to employers or a break up of one of these rings since Bush took office. This is why I think Bush is just giving immigration political lip service and not really addressing the issues. He is sending troops... whooopee... that isn't going to help. He is not making provisions to improve administrative aspects of visa monitoring, nor is he focussed on breaking up illegal rings of immigrant labor. It is only when illegal immigrant labor gets organized under a fat cat that it becomes a problem.
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05-19-06, 10:16 PM
Rakuchild
"...where workers are treated as slaves or indentured servants because they do not have proper documentation or language skills. They are basically owned by someone that can provide false documents and work... kind of like a Godfather."

I believe this is the model for the administration's proposed "guest worker" program.
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05-21-06, 01:35 AM
DvdGStwrt
I seriously doubt that illegals are taking jobs - least ways jobs that Americans would do EX: Mowing lawns (Hey folk can't even mow their own lawn let alone someone else's) cleaning houses (Again can't do their own...), Selling flowers, fruits, what ever on the corner - or standing outside of home depot to be hired for chump change to do a job that a contractor or licensed professional should be doing.

So what do we have? Do we have illegal immigrants taking jobs or doing jobs that citizens are either too lazy to do them selves or lord forbid pay a licensed individual to do?

The last bit does affect me directly, I pay taxes, licensing blah, blah, blah and it really – REALLY ****es me off to see some cracker picking up those illegals instead of calling me. Not that I have a quarrel with the “illegals” I hire them to help with jobs and pay them fair wages my quarrel is with Mr. Cheap Scape cracker who is basically taking my job from me.

The Americans are screwing over Americans. It’s not the illegals who take advantage of the naturally occurring greed of the Americans.

As for español de discurso en América. The Constitution is written in English, our laws are written in English thus everyone who lives here (tourists may be exempt for a minutes stay) should speak English.

If I go to México I will learn Mexican Spanish before I go. Sé bastante español ;-)
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05-21-06, 03:26 PM
hippolips

quote:
Originally posted by aminator2002:
"Yes, people coming into a country without language skills can be taken advantage of"

Yes, some are, in fact, taken advantage of on a daily basis.

"- by those who speak their language as well as those who don't.



------------------------------------------------

Hi Aminator:

I live in a border state,California.Since you list only U.S.A. ,I have no idea in which state you live.

I can tell you this,living in a border state,I see firsthand ,on almost a daily basis , where Speaking English is an ECONOMIC advantage for immigrant workers in California.

Whenever I see a work crew ,it is invariably
the one who speaks English who is El Hefe[The Boss].

He's the one who tells the other workers what to do,he is also the one who does the negotiating where money is concerned,he's usually the one who makes the most money and he also works his way up the economic ladder the fastest.

In short,the one who learns English the quickest makes the most bucks the fastest.

It only makes good economic sense.Speak Spanish,Cinese,or whatever you want at home,but at work,speak English,it's the language of Business.

hippolips

This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,