Boom ***************************************************** 09-09-06, 12:45 PM DorianGreyed Well, I'll be darned! Scotty was right! It's not like Vietnam at all. In Vietnam, we inflated the number of Vietnamese deaths.* Here, we undercount. All this time, I've been wrong.
*Unless, of course, you accept the "official" totals, in which case, we killed about 98% of the population of both North and South Vietnam. Roll Eyes
09-09-06, 01:13 PM newnickname "Brief up ticks of violence" is a new one. Previously we've had "spikes" and "temporary upsurges" of violence.
quote: Well, I'll be darned! Scotty was right! It's not like Vietnam at all
quote:
[QUOTE] Vietnam vets in Iraq see 'entirely different war' [/QUOTE REF
It seems that the people who fought in Vietnam, including me, see things differently than you do DG.
Of course I can see how you arm chair Quarterbacks would see things differently than those of us who went over and fought, while you protested, and ran off to Canada. Big Grin
09-10-06, 02:19 AM DorianGreyed "It seems that the people who fought in Vietnam, including me, see things differently than you do DG."
Today our government is still financing and arming undemocratic and repressive regimes around the world. Recently, American troops have been sent into combat in the Middle East and Central America, for many of the same misguided reasons that were used to send us to Southeast Asia.
I could go on, but an objective person can see that apparently, you really don't speak for all vets, or even all Vietnam vets, nor all officers, it seems. -------- By the way, once again, you are wrong. I have only been in Canada once, in the 1980s, for just a few hours. Like the men you seem to admire, I had different priorities during the Vietnam war, so I removed myself from the first alternate position for the Academy, and turned down the offered appointment to Air Force Academy. Since my college boards score easily qualified me for any school in the US, I don't think I would have had much of a problem at either school. I also declined the offer to wrestle for the Navy, even though I was told that "If you're as good as he (another wrestler from my home town) says, you'll only leave the US to wrestle in Europe." (This one, I admit, was a mistake on my part. My life would have been much easier had I accepted. Three guys that were on my HS team wrestled for a living in the service and never left the states.)
You got the protest right, though. It was a few million like me that help to pressure the politicians to get out of that war. No, I wasn't a big shot in the movement, just one of the multitude, one of the foot soldiers, if you will. But we accomplished our objective. Had we not, we could easily still be there, winning the battles, and losing ground in the war every day.
I don't generally put some parts of my life then on display, but you seem to speak a great deal regarding things that you really don't know about, so I thought I should speak out this time. Something for you to think about - Imagine that I did go through the Academy. Do you think you'd hear that ring when it knocked?
09-10-06, 11:34 AM Scotty
quote: I could go on, but an objective person can see that apparently, you really don't speak for all vets, or even all Vietnam vets, nor all officers, it seems.
Only the majority. You seem to take comfort in the minority. All you need is a handful of people to claim victory. If you get a few people to agree with your thinking, you are happy.
09-10-06, 11:37 AM newnickname
quote: I have only been in Canada once, in the 1980s, for just a few hours.
Didn't you like it? Frown
09-10-06, 11:40 AM Scotty
quote: I don't generally put some parts of my life then on display, but you seem to speak a great deal regarding things that you really don't know about, so I thought I should speak out this time. Something for you to think about
I had two combat tours in Vietnam, and you claim to know more about the war than I do, very good logic.
Thats like me claiming to know more about being a cry baby war protester, and a chicken than you do.
09-10-06, 11:44 AM Scotty
quote: By the way, once again, you are wrong. I have only been in Canada once, in the 1980s, for just a few hours. Like the men you seem to admire,
Thats right! I admire men , the kind of people that this country needs, and depends on for their freedom. What do cry baby, coward, war protesters offer?
quote: While you may speak for most of them (and I won't claim to know if you do or don't), you certainly don't speak for all of them. Of the few dozen Vietnam vets I know and have talked to in the last 3 or 4 years, none see Iraq as a war we should be in, and all compare it to their war
Of course, you can always find a few who will disagree with anything. Thats nothing new.
09-10-06, 11:52 AM sid1114 Scotty: Seems pretty typical: when confronted with facts, attack personally. Makes you a good republican.
And by the way: I served as a doctor in Vietnam. Among my medals is a Purple Heart. Does that make my opinion on the Iraq war more worthy than others? Actually, no. But including current facts in my opinion makes it more worthy than those of people who ignore them, or attack the people who speak rather than addressing the argument.
09-10-06, 11:59 AM Scotty
quote: Scotty: Seems pretty typical: when confronted with facts, attack personally. Makes you a good republican.
I didn't know DG was a Republican. That certainly is his style.
I didn't realize that speaking the truth about war protesters was considered personal attacks. Confused
quote: And by the way: I served as a doctor in Vietnam. Among my medals is a Purple Heart. Does that make my opinion on the Iraq war more worthy than others?
Actually, yes.
09-10-06, 12:47 PM DorianGreyed I have often wondered just how many thousands of lives were saved because of the protesters during the Vietnam war. Not only did we save the lives of Vietnamese, but also the lives of US military. I wonder exactly whose life, exactly which lives, my small part in ending that war played. I wonder if I have ever met or spoken to a man who exists today because a minority of US citizens exercised their right to speak freely. It's somewhat funny, if you think about it.
As part of your continuing education, Scotty, read about the percentage of colonials who actually wanted to break from Britain. That may teach you a bit about the power of a minority. Then read about the tiny minority of protesters in the early civil rights movement. That may teach you about the power of a minority that has right and moral courage on its side.
But then, possibly none of that will teach you anything. Successful teaching requires two basics - the ability to teach, and the ability to learn.
09-10-06, 12:57 PM DorianGreyed " Didn't you like it?"
I didn't like getting change in Canadian dollars. But the limited amount of country I saw was beautiful. The only people I dealt with were in tourist shops, and, in my opinion, they are the same regardless of where you are. In any case, I was on vacation with my (then) wife, a situation not conducive to pleasure or enjoyment.
09-10-06, 01:03 PM DorianGreyed "Among my medals is a Purple Heart. Does that make my opinion on the Iraq war more worthy than others?" - Sid
"Actually, yes." - Scotty
So then we should listen to Murtha and Kerry rather than bush and Cheney. Thanks for the endorsement, Scotty. Welcome to the right side of the issue. Big Grin
09-10-06, 01:51 PM Scotty
quote: So then we should listen to Murtha and Kerry rather than bush and Cheney. Thanks for the endorsement, Scotty. Welcome to the right side of the issue.
Kerry. Roll Eyes What a joke.
09-10-06, 02:05 PM DorianGreyed So then you disagree with what you say. Interesting. Does this happen often?
09-10-06, 02:11 PM Scotty
quote: I have often wondered just how many thousands of lives were saved because of the protesters during the Vietnam war. Not only did we save the lives of Vietnamese, but also the lives of US military. I wonder exactly whose life, exactly which lives, my small part in ending that war played.
Thats strange! I have seen many reports about the ending of the war, and none of them mention the fact that war protesters ended the war.
I would say that you part was not as important as you would like to think that it was. I think that most of the anti-war crowd were the ones that were afraid to fight.
09-10-06, 02:14 PM Scotty
quote: So then you disagree with what you say. Interesting. Does this happen often?
Kerry wasn't there long enough to realize what was going on. If you want to know something about Vietnam, talk to the people that stayed awhile, not an overnight visitor. Big Grin
09-10-06, 02:17 PM juanruiz
quote: I would say that you part was not as important as you would like to think that it was.
I always thought Walter Cronkite ended the war.
09-10-06, 02:20 PM DorianGreyed He did more than most, JR.
09-10-06, 02:21 PM juanruiz The mind slowly blows... I guess so. After all, HE WAS THERE.
09-10-06, 02:32 PM Scotty
quote: I guess so. After all, HE WAS THERE.
A hell of a lot better than some. Smile
09-10-06, 02:44 PM DorianGreyed You got him to take the drink, JR. Now tell him what was in it.
09-10-06, 03:13 PM Scotty Yes, Juan, Please tell me what was in the drink. Smile Cause........I feel good.............
09-10-06, 03:19 PM juanruiz I don't suppose you'd believe me if I said Communion wine.
09-10-06, 03:22 PM Scotty
quote: I don't suppose you'd believe me if I said Communion wine.
Didn't taste the same. Razz
09-10-06, 03:25 PM juanruiz Must have been Mogen David.
09-10-06, 03:29 PM Scotty Ah! That could be, I'm not used to that brand.
09-10-06, 05:32 PM Scotty A little humor for DG.
quote: Top 11 Things That Anti-War Protesters Would Have Said At the Normandy Invasion on D-Day (Had There Been Anti-War Protesters At Normandy) 11. No blood for French Wine!
10. It’s been two and a half years since Pearl Harbor and they still haven’t brought Admiral Nagumo to justice
9. In 62 years, the date will be 6/6/6. A coincidence? I think not.
8. All this death and destruction is because the neo-cons are in the pocket of Israel
7. The soldiers are still on the beach, this invasion is a quagmire
6. Sure the holocaust is evil, but so was slavery
5. We are attacked by Japan and then attack France? Roosevelt is worse than the Kaiser!
4. Why bring democracy to Europe by force and not to Korea or Vietnam? I blame racism
3. This war doesn’t attack the root causes of Nazism
2. I support the troops, but invading Germany does not guarantee that in 56 years we won't have a President who's worse than Hitler
1. I don't see Roosevelt or Churchill storming the beaches -- they're Chicken Hawks
I guess I did, Frank. Thanks for the reminder. I wasn't trying to take credit. I put it in quotes.
09-10-06, 07:00 PM DorianGreyed You were right again, Scotty, that was a little humor. Inaccurate in several cases, but accuracy has never been your strong point, has it. A little knowledge of history might have told you that several Right Wing groups felt Roosevelt intentionally got us into a war with an innocent country, Germany, who was misunderstood by the rest of the world. In fact, there were active Nazi support groups in the US up to and during the war, although their activities waned and went underground as the war went on. The word "impeachment" was used, even by the New York Times.
Roosevelt's lack of service in the military was also brought out by some of those who opposed going to war with Germany, and no less a figure than Charles Lindbergh (I do hope you know who that is.) felt that Germany couldn't be defeated and that it was nearly a traitorous move to go to war against it. Churchill's service is well-known, except, of course, by those who are ignorant of history. (Churchill, by the way, had to be talked out of being present at DDay, so imaging a comparison between him and bush really brings out the laughs. Thanks for that.)
It is also worth noting that we accomplished a complete invasion of a continent and defeat of the enemy, one with a far stronger military, in less time than it is taking to secure one country that started out with a near-worthless military.
All in all, this really was one of your better attempts at humor. Soon enough, you'll be ready to play at Right Wing rallies, but you'd better hurry, because attendance is down at those.
09-10-06, 07:11 PM Scotty DG, Calm down, don't get so serious, just humor that's all. Take it easy.
quote: You were right again, Scotty
Smile
Such insults to my intelligence, my my.I am going to tell Karrow.
09-10-06, 07:16 PM DorianGreyed Trust me, Scotty, I'm smiling. I really do find your attempts at humor very funny.
09-10-06, 07:26 PM Scotty
quote: Trust me, Scotty, I'm smiling. I really do find your attempts at humor very funny.
Somehow deep down I really knew that DG, but it is good to hear it from the horses mouth. Someone said my attempts were almost as good as yours. I feel honored.
09-10-06, 07:49 PM DorianGreyed "Someone said my attempts were almost as good as yours. I feel honored."
That's probably the same voice that tells you we are winning in Iraq. You really need to ignore those voices.
09-10-06, 07:56 PM newnickname If Bush had been President then, the protestors on D-Day would more likely have been saying, "Why Dublin?", "Ireland is not part of the Axis" and the like, as US troops charged into the wrong country. (Not my own idea either, but I forget where I heard it first.)
Attempts to conflate the unnecessary and bungled invasion of Iraq with events in WWII certainly are funny, in a dark way.
09-10-06, 08:03 PM Scotty
quote: That's probably the same voice that tells you we are winning in Iraq. You really need to ignore those voices.
Certainly not! Eek
Sorry, DG, I forgot you have no sense of humor.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Scotty, 09-10-06 08:41 PM
09-10-06, 09:58 PM sid1114 HelloHHHH... seems to me the original point was about ignoring certain deaths in the body count in Iraq (read: lying about it). So Scotty: I take it it's no big deal to you? It's ok to claim deaths are decreasing when they aren't? You think in addressing what's going on over there, it's not necessary to look at the facts? Doesn't bother you that in selling the war to the people paying for it, bush has decided to keep the facts away from us? Just asking. Because that's why I started the thread.
09-10-06, 10:15 PM DorianGreyed "You think in addressing what's going on over there, it's not necessary to look at the facts? Doesn't bother you that in selling the war to the people paying for it, bush has decided to keep the facts away from us?"
Don't confuse me with facts. I've got a closed mind. - Earl Landgrebe, Republican Congressman and Nixon suporter when told about incriminating conversations on the Watergate tapes
09-10-06, 10:32 PM Scotty
quote: Just asking. Because that's why I started the thread.
I think that we all deserve to know the truth about what is going on, unless it compromises national security. I never said anything different to my knowledge.
quote: Don't confuse me with facts
I don't think that it was intentional to confuse you with the facts, DG.
09-11-06, 11:06 PM DorianGreyed Uh...Scotty, that was a quote from a Republican congressman who didn't want to know the facts (about Watergate) because he had already made up his mind.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
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