Were they dangerous? Could they have caused problems? Of course, the "terrorists" that the US arrested in Florida were dangerous in that they wanted to damage America in some dramatic way. But consider the following, with information from Time magazine:
Were they in any way al Qeada?
The arrested men appear to be part of a cult organization proclaiming itself to be Muslim — although a member of the same religious group says it is, in fact, based on a homebrew of Islam and Christianity, and calls itself "Seas of David."
Could they have really pulled off any terrorist act?
Considering the fact that they "strutt(ed) around a poor black neighborhood in military-style uniforms, wearing turbans, standing guard around the abandoned warehouse in which they lived and conducting late-night exercise drills, while telling neighbors that they had "given their lives to Allah", I think that the likelihood of their doing anything besides looking like kids playing army were slim. These guys didn't even have access to any types of weapons. and there is no evidence thay any of them could have built a bomb with or without instructions. They are so inept and show such a lack of understanding of what they wanted to do that they requested (from their "al Qeada contact", a federal agent) army boots so that they could conduct a "ground war" (all 7 of them!) against the US. (By the way, that federal agent was the closest any of them got to any al Qeada people.) If al Qeada really uses people this stupid, why haven't we wrapped up the War on Terror yet? Yes, they could have gotten weapons the old-fashioned way, and bought them on the street, like any good gang member in the US can do, so, yes, they could have killed people, like the DC sniper or any of several snipers have over the years in the US, but being a sniper does involve shooting accurately, and these guys didn't seem to do anything well, or even right, for that matter.
It is a good thing that these guys are off the streets, but a large part of that good is that they are no longer a danger to themselves. They make the Heaven's Gate cult look smart. Does anyone else think that there is a great deal of hype from the administration about how much good we are doing in fighting terrorists in the US? (After all, you read about these guys, and you may forget that real terrorists snuck into the US, planned a major attack by releasing hydrogen cyanide gas in the New York subways, but aborted the plan on orders from the real al Qeada, and then left the country. and we ddn't know about it until after it was over.) ************************************************************* 06-23-06, 06:51 PM frankvan Not only do I think there is a great deal of hype involved in the "revelation" of this terrorist (?) plot, or the decision to reveal the details at the same time as Cheney's visit to the home of the Sears tower, or the likelihood of a wish to divert attention from the Bank transactions spying story - but why now? I would have thought that the usual way to proceed in the ongoing investigation of such conspiracies, is to allow them to continue to develop until such time as there is any possibility of their taking drastic and illegal action. In this case we have arrested a bunch of goofball nuts for what they were talking about and thinking about - another "pre-emptive strike" in the interest of influencing gullible voters in November. How to blow up a skyscraper without explosives while under the watchful eye of, and accompanied by, law enforcement. Roll Eyes Why do I feel less safe than before this ??? ************************************************************* 06-23-06, 10:50 PM newnickname Goofball nuts can also be dangerous, I guess.
Wouldn't it be a false step, in electoral terms, for the administration to hype this too much?
Or are voters supposed to be terrified in general of everything? The US Attorney-General, Alberto Gonzales has warned that home-grown terrorists could pose as much danger to the US as foreign al-Qaeda operatives. ************************************************************* 06-24-06, 12:24 AM sid1114 On the one hand, I've always argued that intelligence-gathering was the way to fight terrorists (as opposed to invading Iraq); on the other, as soon as I saw Alberto Gonzales ashcrofting himself in front of the press, I figured something was fishy. ************************************************************* 06-24-06, 01:23 AM FredPuli These people wear turbans when they are "strutting around" and proclaiming that they have "given themselves for for Allah" [from the Time link above] Turbans? Is this the ignorance of the writer or the ignorance of these people? Turbans are worn only by Sikhs, not muslims ! The turban, or its smaller version the patka worn when playing sports,is the one uniquely distinguishing feature of a Sikh man. ************************************************************* 06-24-06, 11:35 AM Sarai Fred, you're right that the turban is worn by Sikhs and is not entirely common among Muslims, but it is not correct to say that "Turbans are worn only by Sikhs, not muslims." Some Muslims do, in fact, wear them, although it is more common to see them on Sikhs than on Muslims.
quote: In Arab culture, the turban (imamah) is an important spiritual element of the cultural faith. Ancient Arabs wore them and took pride in them; to be deprived of one's turban was humiliating, and knocking a man's turban off was considered an insult. In daily life, the turban was very useful for fending off the desert sand and protecting the face from high temperatures and strong sunlight. In modern Persian Gulf countries, the turban has been replaced by the white or red-and-white checkered scarf (called keffiyeh, ghutrah or shumagh), though the turban tradition is still strong in Oman (see, for example, Sultan Qaboos of Oman). In Sudan, a large white turban is worn and can indicate social status. Islamic leaders can be seen wearing turbans, in particular Shia Muslim scholars who have become famous for them (e.g., Ayatollah Khomeini, Ayatollah Khamenei, Hezbollah head Sayyid Hassan Nasrallah, and newcomers to the world stage, like Iraq's Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani). These are worn by Persian and Arab scholars alike; the black colour indicates a sayyid, a descendant of the Prophet Muhammad. Jews in Arabic countries often wore turbans as well, due to assimilation. The traditional color is black.
Saturday 24 June 2006 The Bush administration finally took action against alleged terrorists living in plain sight in Miami, but they weren't the right-wing Cuban terrorists implicated in actual acts of terror, such as blowing a civilian Cuban airliner out of the sky. They were seven young black men whose crime was more "aspirational than operational," the FBI said. As media fanfare over the arrests made the seven young men, many sporting dreadlocks, the new face of the terrorist enemy in America, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales conceded that the men had no weapons or explosives and represented "no immediate threat." For longtime observers of political terrorism in South Florida, the aggressive reaction to what may have been the Miami group's loose talk about violence, possibly spurred by an FBI informant posing as an al-Qaeda operative, stands in marked contrast to the US government's see-no-evil approach to notorious Cuban terrorists who have lived openly in Miami for decades. For instance, the Bush administration took no action in early April 2006, when a Spanish-language Miami television station interviewed Cuban terrorist Orlando Bosch, who offered a detailed justification for the 1976 mid-air bombing of a Cubana Airlines flight that killed 73 people, including the young members of the Cuban national fencing team. For instance, the Bush administration took no action in early April 2006, when a Spanish-language Miami television station interviewed Cuban terrorist Orlando Bosch, who offered a detailed justification for the 1976 mid-air bombing of a Cubana Airlines flight that killed 73 people, including the young members of the Cuban national fencing team. Bosch refused to admit guilt, but his chilling defense of the bombing - and the strong evidence that has swirled around his role - left little doubt of his complicity, even as he lives in Miami as a free man, protected both in the past and present by the Bush family. ------------------------------------ I guess it's not so much what you do, but what you would like to do if you could get enough help from powerful friends. Confused ************************************************************* 06-25-06, 12:47 AM FredPuli Sarai, point taken but the Wikipedia article is surely academic and not reflecting real life. Sure, some ayatollah in Iran might wear one just as a bishop might wear a mitre. Now when did you ever see an ordinary muslim wearing a turban? We have millions of muslims in Europe and I've yet to see it.It would be extremely unlikely considering the long history of violence between Sikhs and Muslims. No Muslim here would dare wear a turban , the symbol of a Sikh. Why should he? Certainly none of the muslims who demonstrate or act as suicide bombers here have worn one any more than a Christian demonstrator would wear a mitre Big Grin ************************************************************* 06-25-06, 09:38 AM Scotty Should we mitigate the actions of anyone who wants to harm the people of this Country? A terrorists is a terrorists, regardless, and must be removed from the rest of society. ************************************************************* 06-25-06, 10:45 AM DorianGreyed "A terrorists is a terrorists, regardless, and must be removed from the rest of society."
No one has said otherwise. With whom are you disagreeing, Scotty? Maybe with bush? (See below.) The rest of us were commenting about the Woody Allen-esque gang that the US is making such a big deal about capturing. The only thing that these guys missed in their laughingly simplistic plans to attack America was to put out a sign saying, "Caution ! Terrorists Working" on the side of their "headquarters."
Has the US deported or extradicted Luis Posada Carriles, the convicted criminal who escaped from a Venezuelan prison"? He is known to have been involved in numerous violent terrorist plots, including hotel bombings and the 1976 bombing of Cubana Flight 455 , as well as having been involved in Operation Condor , namely in Orlando Letelier's murder in Washington, D.C., a few weeks before Cubana de Aviación's explosion. Both Cuba and Venezuela (who has an extradiction treaty with the US) want him.
(Ironically, the US denied Venezuela's extradiction request because of the possibility of his being tortured there. Apparently, only the US has the right to torture terrorists.)
Otter: He can't do that do that to our pledges. Boon: Only we can do that to our pledges. Animal House ************************************************************* 06-25-06, 11:50 PM newnickname 'In essence, the entire case rests upon conversations between Narseal Baptiste, the apparent ringleader of the group, with the informant, who was posing as a member of al-Qa'ida but in fact belonged to the South Florida Terrorist Task Force.
At a meeting "on or about 16 December" according to the indictment made public as the men made their first court appearance in Miami, Mr Baptiste asked his contact to supply equipment including uniforms, machine guns, explosives, cars and $50,000 in cash for an "Islamic Army" that would carry out a mission "just as good or greater than 9/11".
In fact, the conspiracy seems to have extended little further than those words. By last month, it had all but fizzled out, amid squabbling among Mr Baptiste's followers. Even their religious leanings are in dispute. Neighbors say they were part of a group, called Seas of David, that mixes Christian and Islamic elements.'news.independent.co.uk ************************************************************* 06-26-06, 12:47 AM FredPuli In contrast to this conspiracy alleged, which seems a little like fantasy talking : We have a case running in England where 7 muslim men are on trial. The prosecution has tapes of their discussions, evidence of their buying over half a tonne of ammonium nitrate for making explosive, their storing it and of one, on video, visiting the storeroom. The Prosecution are to calll a convicted terrorist to testify against them
The police taped these men discussing targets and how best to arrange attacks. One worked for an electricity supply company and there is discussion of putting out power supply in part of a coordinated attack. There is plain evidence of their having terrorist muslim, "al Qaeda' interest and sympathies.
These are home-grown suspects, just as the two gangs of London bombers were. The wonder is that so far the USA has not produced anything much like this. What's "wrong" with your muslims over there? Does the USA not produce extremist muslims? Or are you stopping the intending terrorists but not announcing the fact? Our own security agencies have said that they have already prevented several potential attacks in the last year or so. ************************************************************* 06-27-06, 02:16 PM sid1114 It's a fine point, I'd say. How many of us (Scotty excepted) have, in the privacy of our homes and amongst friends, said something about Bush, about the war, about the Soviet-style of governance we're seeing of late? And had there been a "spy" among us, how would our words have sounded on replay in the media? These guys -- so far anyway -- haven't been shown to be much different. Bluster and tough talk; no real plans, no weapons. One even talks about his BIBLE studies. My prediction: if they ever come to court, they'll eventually get off. Not having all the facts, I can't say if I think they were the real deal or not. But I'd hope even Scotty (a paradigm, not a personal comment) would agree we'd not like to live in a country where talk only equates to terrorism, legally speaking. I'm betting there've been a few words about Hillary and Bill....
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