Amid the effusive praise the media have heaped on the Amish for their stoic resignation following the murder of several of their children, the reasons for their unusual behavior seems to have escaped notice. Sometimes there is a logical reason why people choose to remain unobserved by society. If no one knows what you're up to you can get away with almost anything. ********************************************************** 10-08-06, 05:38 PM Sherasi Frankvan,
I have respect for the ethics and values to WHICH THE AMISH ASPIRE, but I have often felt that the group does not always even come close to managing it in reality.
Their live stock and the sick, weak or infirm members of their society are the most frequent victims and I can positively affirm that there has been some appalling abuses within that society.
There is a hypocrisy in how many members live, shunning technology in their own possession, but are willing to USE that technology directly with borrowing or hiring it. Their steel-rimmed wheels of their wagons and carts damage roads, but they do not pay taxes to help repair those roads.
I have seen a phone sitting in the middle of a field belonging to no one, but it is very convenient that only the Amish come and use it.
Hospitalized members of their community almost always have other family or friends sitting with them, but those 'visitors' are always glued to the television and nary a word or gesture exchanged with the sick loved one.
As I said, there ARE those members that are upright and honest in their dealings with their faith and values, but it seems like mouth work much of the time to me.
10-09-06, 09:22 AM frankvan You got that right, Sherasi!! The ethics and values we ASPIRE to are often a far cry from the ones we realize. The sad fact of these Amish is the ignorance and abuse they impose on their children. I think it's fine to follow any screwball belief system that appeals to yourself, but aren't children entitled to some individual choices and rights to grow toward enlightened futures ? Who is speaking out on their behalf??
10-09-06, 11:29 AM coldfuse An ethical husband knows that it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral husband won't do it.
10-09-06, 12:59 PM newnickname Isolated patriarchal societies all seem to be a pretty bad deal for everyone except the isolated patriarchs - but for most of human history and pre-history, that was how society was.
10-09-06, 02:21 PM Kendor Is there any evidence that suggests sexual or physical abuse is more prolific in Amish culture than any other in this country?
10-09-06, 02:40 PM aminator2002 not sure kendor but if you read that article it certainly seems to go virtually unchecked in Amish culture.
10-09-06, 02:59 PM DorianGreyed With the increasing number of young Amish leaving the community, I think that, if this incest were widespread, there should be more news about this than just the little that has hit the mainstream media. It is not as if the mainstream media would shy away from coverage of this type.
10-09-06, 03:54 PM Lighteningrodd
quote: Originally posted by DorianGreyed: With the increasing number of young Amish leaving the community, I think that, if this incest were widespread, there should be more news about this than just the little that has hit the mainstream media. It is not as if the mainstream media would shy away from coverage of this type.
I thought I felt the Earth shake on this one!!! Eek A rare occassion I agree with you DG!!! Big Grin
There are some Amish close to where I live. Have even done business with some of them. My experience with them, they are pretty good people. Granted they dress a little different.
If anyone here ever gets a chance to eat at an Amish restaurant, by all means do so. They certainly know how to cook!!! Smile
10-09-06, 04:03 PM Sherasi
quote: Originally posted by Lighteningrodd: If anyone here ever gets a chance to eat at an Amish restaurant, by all means do so. They certainly know how to cook!!! Smile
I do not mean to disparage this statement, but unless you are SURE that the food has been prepared through federal regulations of sanitation and health (including REFRIGERATION OF MEATS, DAIRY AND PRODUCE) then, be very wary.
The Amish store their food in cool basements and maggots and other parasites are COMMON in their meats, etc. Also, their communities have very different standards of cleanliness THAT WORKS FOR THEM because of their immunity... but WE CAN GET VERY SICK.
I do NOT eat anything that is NOT fresh produce that I can wash before eating myself. That means only fruits and vegetables that are whole and uncut. I do not eat any prepared foods including preserves for the same reason.
Again, this works for them because they live this way.. they are literally an alien culture waiting to infest newcomers with Small Pox (this is not a literal statement, but statement of the way their microbes are NOT the same as ours).
Of course they cook well. But is their food safe for us.
10-09-06, 07:15 PM frankvan "The Amish tightly circumscribe their world in other ways as well. For the most part, they don't file lawsuits, serve on juries, run for political office, or vote (despite Republican efforts to enlist them in the 2004 election). In 1993, Martin France, the district attorney in Wayne County, Ohio, prosecuted a case against a driver who killed five Amish children. France got little support from the victims' families. "They didn't want anything to do with me. They would just say, 'This was God's will and we're not going to interfere,' " he recalled. An Amish woman who lived next to the site of the accident told France that while she was pinning up her laundry, she saw the driver's car race down a hill and hit the children, who flew as high as a nearby telephone pole. But the woman refused to testify; her bishop wouldn't allow it".
This may help explain why we don't hear more about the abuse in the media. Why don't we hear more from the young Amish who leave? After being brain-washed since birth, limited to the eighth grade, taught by their uneducated peers, the flat-world absent of science, ruled by their "bishops" elected by the elders, ??? One young girl who complained about being raped by her brothers had all her teeth pulled out - for talking to outsiders. That was on national television recently. How does anyone expect to see more publicity from the activities of a secret cult, permitted to remain so as long as no inter-communication is permitted or so long as the outside community is apathetic. As long as the food is edible, cheap, they don't bother me, etc. who cares that their women are slaves and their children brain washed, uneducted, and deprived of human rights the rest of us take for granted??? Roll Eyes
10-10-06, 07:45 AM VelvetVoice
quote: Originally posted by frankvan: How does anyone expect to see more publicity from the activities of a secret cult, permitted to remain so as long as no inter-communication is permitted or so long as the outside community is apathetic. As long as the food is edible, cheap, they don't bother me, etc. who cares that their women are slaves and their children brain washed, uneducted, and deprived of human rights the rest of us take for granted???
What is to be done? It's too vague to say that someone should do something, and too broad to say shut down every religion. Is there something specific that can be done? Until you come up with that answer, the problems will not go away. It's easy for you to say 'religion is not good'. What is there? Total government control? Anarchy?
10-10-06, 09:04 AM frankvan Is that the only choice left to us? Either accept the occasional abuse of children, the subjugation of females , the inferior education, or refrain from criticism?? The rape of a child is not O.K because the parents have forgiven and prayed over the rapist. And it is certainly not O.K for "outsiders" to turn a blind eye simply because they fear the precedent of having the light of day intrude on anyone's religious practices. Crime in the name of God is still crime in the eyes of the law and in this world the secular law should be enforced, whether or not the church authorities disapprove. You ask, "What is there? Total government control ? Anarchy?" Are they the alternatives, really? And where did you see me say "Religion is not good" ? Are you willing to say "All religions are equally good" ? What I DO say is the laws of any particular religious cult may never take precedence or circumvent the laws of the state, or of the United States.
10-10-06, 09:26 AM frankvan
quote: Originally posted by DorianGreyed: With the increasing number of young Amish leaving the community, I think that, if this incest were widespread, there should be more news about this than just the little that has hit the mainstream media. It is not as if the mainstream media would shy away from coverage of this type.
I am not aware of an "increasing number of young Amish leaving the community", but surely incest doesn't have to be "widespread" to sound an alarm. And isn't it obvious that those who do leave the community are old enough to do so?
I think it is exactly the type of thing the main stream media would find virtually impossible to investigate. I do know that either 60 minutes or one of those TV magazine type shows did a feature on the young girl who had all her teeth pulled because she talked about about being repeatedly raped by her brothers, and Amish are not permitted to talk outside the cult. The biggest thing the Amish have going for them is that they keep all their shenanigans PRIVATE, everyone as subordinate and ignorant as possible and don't ask anything from the rest of us. So long as they don't bother us, don't cost us anything. we're willing to leave them alone - just abandon the women and children to the medieval practices of the patriarchs. Roll Eyes
10-10-06, 11:02 AM VelvetVoice I think the offenders in these cases should be prosecuted to the full extent of the secular law, now that we are aware of them. However, that does not mean that every single male or family has these same problems, and there is nothing we should do unless we are made aware of these crimes. I am not sure how to make the Amish population aware of these things, though.
My irritation comes from closer to home. One of the parents in my GS troop was a victim of incest/rape in childhood. Now, every single thing we do as a troop she insists on making safety rules to protect the children. I am all for safety and child protection, but we know all our parents, and it's almost as if you are accusing the person (or the Amish belief) before there is evidence of wrongdoing. I hope that clarifies things a bit.
10-10-06, 11:18 AM frankvan
quote: There are some Amish close to where I live. Have even done business with some of them. My experience with them, they are pretty good people. Granted they dress a little different.
Yeah! Who's gonna count an occasional rape or incest? They can just deal with those things themselves, like the Catholics handled the priest/child molestation cases. No need to bother the rest of us. Roll Eyes
10-10-06, 11:22 AM DorianGreyed I am not saying that it isn't a problem, nor am I saying that it should be ignored. I am saying that the crime is probably not as prevalent as some of these posts indicate. -------- Generally speaking, the Amish do not practice any form of birth control. Thus, their population must increase.* Couple that with the increased prices for farmland and decreasing revenues for low-tech farming forcing many Amish to work away from the farm, particularly in construction and factory-labor. Increased contact with the "English" means, in my opinion, increased numbers of young people leaving the community. Surely there is a lower limit to the number of people that can be fed by two acres, and the number of workers needed to work those acres. (Not all of them can open shops.) There must also be an upper limit to how large a community can get. With such large families, if the numbers of Amish leaving wouldn't increase, there would be a great many more Amish communities springing up all over. Wikipedia gives 29,000 as the largest Amish community. Where are all the new communities? How many people in AP have a new Amish community within a hundred miles of their home? That population increase must be going somewhere.
The Amish have a practice of allowing older children to experience life outside the community. While it does not seem in reality to be what has been written, it still provides young Amish females a glimpse of freedom from a life of rape and incest that some are claiming to be a "plague". Yet we do not hear of large numbers of young women making such claims.
One source quotes an Amish man as saying that 90% of the children stay with the church, and that the "retention rate" is the highest since the 1930s. If 10%% of an increasing population is leaving, the numbers of those leaving must increase. From what I have read, many of the ones who stay are not living the life that their parents and grandparents led. They are becoming less Amish. They are becoming more "English."
Someone else can count the example given by posts and links in this thread, but, even with the tendency of victims of incest to remain silent, there should be many more young women who were raised Amish coming forward with reports of rape than seems to be the case. Family rape and incest is an abhorrent and underreported crime. But I don't see that the Amish are a great deal different that the rest of society in that respect.
*With an average of seven children per family, the Amish population has been doubling about every 20 years since at least the 1940s, said Donald Kraybill, a sociologist at Elizabethtown College in Pennsylvania. Washington Times
10-10-06, 11:26 AM VelvetVoice Also, I think that the Amish are living under a misconception about biblical living. Believers are told to 'live in the world, but not be of it'. For if it is not we who should be a living example to the world, and speak that which we have heard, how should anyone come to the truth? Believers have all come by reading or hearing or seeing a living example in one of us. Do we deny others the power of salvation which we have been given? No, we speak, it is up to you to have ears to hear.
And also, believers are told to avoid even the appearance of evil, so that we may silence those who disparage God due to our misdeeds. My pastor would never be seen with me in public without my husband. One of our congregants didn't pay a tariff on the fish he caught, and when the sin was discovered he apologized to all of us, and was barred from a leadership position. Another was having a relationship with a woman outside of marriage, and we removed him from membership. He is still welcome at our church, but needs to repent before he is allowed to rejoin. All our lives are subject to church discipline, which is much harsher than regular laws, in addition to secular punishment.
10-10-06, 11:27 AM frankvan
quote: Originally posted by Kendor: Is there any evidence that suggests sexual or physical abuse is more prolific in Amish culture than any other in this country?
Who knows? Most of the other cultures don't operate behind closed walls. Sunshine is a great disinfectant. Most miscreants prefer cover of darkness and sworn secrecy. IMHO,
10-10-06, 11:32 AM DorianGreyed "Also, I think that the Amish are living under a misconception about biblical living."
Most adherents of any given sect feel that way about the rest of the sects.
10-10-06, 11:49 AM frankvan
quote: but, even with the tendency of victims of incest to remain silent, there should be many more young women who were raised Amish coming forward with reports of rape than seems to be the case. Family rape and incest is an abhorrent and underreported crime. But I don't see that the Amish are a great deal different that the rest of society in that respect.
But you will admit, I trust, that the Amish are quite different in many ways that are readily apparent. The catholic church appears pretty much just like all the rest of us, but they managed to keep some of the more deplorable practices of a small minority of their clergy away from view for decades, no? Where there is smoke, should we hesitate suggestions of possible fire?
10-10-06, 12:40 PM DorianGreyed I didn't think I implied otherwise. People who use religion to hide sexual molestation are particularly despicable, and I can't think of a word to describe a father molesting his own child. I just think that the size of the problem with regard to the Amish is not as great as some are implying here.
10-10-06, 03:04 PM frankvan I think that if the problem exists at all, and we don't know the extent of it, that is more than enough. The only other references to size I've seen in this thread has appeared to imply that it's not all that bad, really!
10-10-06, 04:00 PM DorianGreyed If there is X amount of resources (and I think that is how those in charge look at things) to spend on child molestation, where do you start? Are there areas (of child molestation) that are in greater need? How does one determine which area has the greater need?
I am not saying that what has been mentioned here is in any way acceptable. I am questioning whether it should be front and center in the efforts to eliminate such crimes.
10-10-06, 07:01 PM frankvan If anything is unacceptable, perhaps the amount of available resources ought to be adjusted to accomodate. The alternative, it seems to me might well be: well, murder is more final than molestation so let's cut spending on child abiuse cases and increase funds for obtaining murder convictions and prevention. I'm not going to start a protest against the Amish, but I do advocate keeping an eye on their extra-legal privileges. Let's not be lulled to sleep by their gentle outward appearance. What do you suppose might have happened if the perp in the Nickel Mine case had NOT killed himself ? Would any of the Amish have been willing to testify?
10-10-06, 07:08 PM DorianGreyed "If anything is unacceptable, perhaps the amount of available resources ought to be adjusted to accomodate."
I agree, but we both know that won't happen. The problem, at best, would get lip service, and things would go on as before. That is why I question using limited resourses for such a small group and using up funds that might help more. There is no real answer.
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