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My thoughts are with Bik and our other friends in Pakistan at this troubled time.

I am trying to imagine the US troops leaving Irak , crossing through Iran to go help the Pakistanese. What a world!!

Sad indeed!

It's terrible for such a thing to happen to a person so brave and fearless like Bhutto. She truly was a role model for everybody around the world. At all costs you must stand for what you believe in.
She died standing up for democracy. She will be missed. Rest In Peace.

So sad. May she rest in peace.

I never heard of her before her campaign of democracy started again in October.
She was very brave to return from voluntary exile this past year to try to lead the Pakistani people to democracy. For her to go through with her campaign despite the death threats is the most couragable thing I have ever seen. She faught for her beliefs and put her life on the line multiple times for her beliefs. Also for the betterment of Pakistan and the allies.
For her with limited resources to try and launch that kind of a campaign is possibly the greatest thing I've seen. I'm deeply saddened by her death. Benazir Bhutto, you were an inspiration to everyone who seeks peace and not violence.
You were one who wanted change.
You were one who loved your country.
With your death I hope you inspire others to stand up for peace......

I was debating how to respond to this post, and after reading what you said ron, all I can say is "Well said Ron, ditto."

One less evil person in the world to worry about.
This is what i said to my boss on hearing the death news about Benazir.

Killing Benazir was a job of the courts who did not have the guts to do it. It was the job of fellow politicians (Nawaz, Leghari, Ishaaq etc)and Musharraf, who did not have the will to do so.
Their work has been done by a lone misguided terrorist, an extreemist. Well I guess some good has come from USA's war on terror.

I do get surprised reading praises about Benazir above. She was no role model. She is that which represents the worst in humanity.
She was selfish, arrogant, greedy and opportunistic b-t-h.

Unless the country breaks up..... this is one of the best news we have had in years.... An event which has to bring some change in the long run in Pakistan's politics. (However hearing that her husband will now run things... is not the change one would be hoping for).

Thank you for your thoughts Dorian.

quote:

Originally posted by SeattleRon:
I never heard of her before her campaign of democracy started again in October.

If there are a few Pakistanis that live near you, they will tell you better about Benazir(rather than CNN or BBC).

quote:

Killing Benazir was a job of the courts who did not have the guts to do it. It was the job of fellow politicians (Nawaz, Leghari, Ishaaq etc)and Musharraf, who did not have the will to do so.

I suppose you do not see a problem with this statement?

quote:

Originally posted by Scotty:

quote:

Killing Benazir was a job of the courts who did not have the guts to do it. It was the job of fellow politicians (Nawaz, Leghari, Ishaaq etc)and Musharraf, who did not have the will to do so.

I suppose you do not see a problem with this statement?

Killing... convicting her for her crimes. Offcourse the parties concerned have not done their job for various reasons. That is why Pakistan is where it is today.

Perhaps, Bik , you approve of the way her father was dealt with (hanged) under a military dictatorship, or what happened to her deceased brothers (both murdered, unless you think the one who was poisoned died by accident) ?

quote:

Originally posted by FredPuli:
Perhaps, Bik , you approve of the way her father was dealt with (hanged) under a military dictatorship, or what happened to her brothers (both murdered, unless you think the one who was poisoned died by accident) ?

As far as one of her brother (Murtaza)is concerned Fred. Do you know under whose rule he was murdered? And do you know the main rumors about the murderer ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murtaza_Bhutto

After returning to Pakistan from exile, Bhutto offerred his sister Benazir the chance to revive the manifesto of PPP which his father championed. However, he was not happy with the corrupt ways of Benazir's husband Asif Ali Zardari and wanted him removed from the interworkings of PPP. [3] When his sister decided to side with her husband, Murtaza became a strong critic of PPP government and the ongoing corruption. This didn't bode well with Zardari, and his protege Abdullah Shah Lakiyari (then CM of Sind) obstructed Murtaza's political compaign[3]. Murtaza invited Zardari to talk in private and settle the problems within the family. However, the meeting ended in confrontation and Murtaza shaved off half of Zardari’s moustache[3]. This humilated Zardari. It is widely believed in Pakistan that this incident drove Zardari to rage and he used help from Lakiyari's police machinery to assassinate Murtaza Bhutto[3]. Benazir became highly unpopular after this incident and her limo was stoned by PPP workers when she tried to visit Murtaza's funeral ceremonies[3]. After Benazir's government was dismissed in 1996, Zardari was detained for having a part in Murtaza's assassination[4]. However, no charges were ever proven due to lack of evidence (the scene of Murtaza's assassination was wiped off before any Police investigators could arrive at the scene[3]).

Please do read the rest... which includes

In the aftermath of this assassination, none of the police officers was arrested. Benazir Bhutto's government chose to arrest all the survivors and witnesses, two of whom died mysteriously in police custody[5]. The police officers involved in this assassination were later promoted to higher positions[5].


I do not know how true is the second paragraph.

Hi Bik,
Not living in Pakistan, we only have the the media reports to rely on, for information here.
I think the BBC report was quite neutral, giving an outline of the situation that led to her assassination.
You have an opportunity now, to help us understand why her assassination was a good thing, I really can't see that her death is a positive thing for your country, but I'm willing to listen.
I'd like to hear your personal opinion. dg

DG...
In Pakistan, there were 2 main political leaders. Nawaz Sharif and Benazir.

Both got elected twice and never were able to finish their terms. Both supported the dismissals of each others government. No good came from them in either terms.

Considering the instituions in Pakistan and the feudal system.... under the present conditions... we are not going to have any other leader besides these two. So we were stuck with them no matter what. No matter even if they loot billions (which they did), we would be seeing them again and again. List of their deeds (a lot hear say) will never end.

With one of them gone... some change would come. (though with the succession of her husband, its too early to say).

Fred... further on the case of her brother death:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-bhutto14nov14...ll=la-opinion-center

And I am suspicious of her talk of ensuring peace. My father was a member of Parliament and a vocal critic of his sister's politics. He was killed outside our home in 1996 in a carefully planned police assassination while she was prime minister. There were 70 to 100 policemen at the scene, all the streetlights had been shut off and the roads were cordoned off. Six men were killed with my father. They were shot at point-blank range, suffered multiple bullet wounds and were left to bleed on the streets.

My father was Benazir's younger brother. To this day, her role in his assassination has never been adequately answered, although the tribunal convened after his death under the leadership of three respected judges concluded that it could not have taken place without approval from a "much higher" political authority.

I have personal reasons to fear the danger that Ms. Bhutto's presence in Pakistan brings, but I am not alone. The Islamists are waiting at the gate. They have been waiting for confirmation that the reforms for which the Pakistani people have been struggling have been a farce, propped up by the White House. Since Musharraf seized power in 1999, there has been an earnest grass-roots movement for democratic reform. The last thing we need is to be tied to a neocon agenda through a puppet "democrat" like Ms. Bhutto.

___________________________________________

The above is from Fatima daughter of Murtaza (brother of Benazir).

Thank you for your reply, Bik. I still don't see how Bhutto's death can be a positive thing for Pakistan. Doesn't it de-stabalise the country further?
However, after reading your post above, I found this about the niece of Benazir Bhutto:

Fatima is Murtaza's eldest daughter. A graduate of Columbia University, the 25-year-old spends her days writing and campaigning against her aunt, who, she says, is "one of the most corrupt leaders the world has seen."

and,
It has been more than 10 years since Fatima last spoke to her aunt. She feels that Benazir was complicit in the murder of her father. The proof, she says, lies in the report issued by a tribunal convened after her father's death, which concluded that the assassination could not have taken place without approval from a "much higher" political authority.

Pakistan: The "Other" Bhutto

As you said, the choice of Zardari as an interim successor to Bhutto cannot be a good one, given the corruption charges against the family. So what is next for Pakistan? Is Fatima Bhutto seen as a possible future contender? What possibilities are there?

Can you explain how Pakistan's parliamentary system works. Who has ultimate power; the President or the Prime Minister?

Thanks. dg

quote:

Originally posted by dance girl:
Thank you for your reply, Bik. I still don't see how Bhutto's death can be a positive thing for Pakistan. Doesn't it de-stabalise the country further?

It does de-stabalise country.... but I think only in the short run.

The current terrorist attacks in Pakistan has nothing to do with Benzair (& her supporters).

She is a pro USA candidate and Nawaz Sharif's seems to be the pro Saudia Arabia candidate. Benazir no doubt would have 20 to 30% of the country's support. But she also has large majority of the people that really despise her. All her past 10 year criminal records were going to be wiped out by legislation if Musharraf had his way. Why was Musharaaf doing that all of a sudden ? There is no reason other than pressure from USA. Her appointment would have raised anti US sentiments even further. The terrorist attacks would not have gone down with her appointment but would have gone up.

On top of this... Musharraf who has compartively some control on corruption..... would also have finished.

I do not see a single good thing that would have come, had Benazir come in power.

The only way she could have come in power was under the current situation... where Nawaz Sharif, who is more popular than Benazir... would be restricted some way .

With her gone... there is a vaccum in Pakistan politics... an opening. Sooner or later it maybe be filled. By who ! I do not know. But it is worth it.

To understand better... how would you like it if Bush was made president of USA forever ? some would like it... but most would not.
Consider the above situation... dozen times worse... if Benzair had come in power.

____________________________________

In Pakistan it is the Prime Minister that runs the show. He is elected by the National Assembly, which is elected by the people.

National Assembly also elects Senate based on equal representation of all 4 provinces.

Then Senate and National Assembly jointly elect the President.

In Pakistan the constitutions has often been changed depanding who is in power. One of the clause of constituion allows the President to dismiss Prime Minister and Natioanl Assembly for various reasons. Presidents do not have a lot of powers, but as Zia Ul Haq and Musharraf were one of the former Presidents... the constitutions has clauses that give them a lot of power.

Lastly... we really do not have a clear assurity that when were the last elections held in Pakistan that were not rigged. Benazir has a policy : if she wins, everything is free and fair. If she looses, then elections are rigged.

Bik,
Thank you for your very clear explanation. Watching 'BBC World' today, I see the elections have been postponed for 6 weeks. Zardari, obviously protests this, counting on an early sympathy vote.
Who woud actually run as leader of the PPP, in an election? Bilawal Bhutto is legally too young, and Zadari has too much of a history of corruption, by all accounts.
Scotland Yard has been asked to assist in an investigation into Bhutto's death: CBC