Originally posted by babthrower: The Valorous One sez:
quote:
Better to possibly go to county lock-up than to War. Which is the lesser of two evils?
Well, what could we have expected but this from someone so gung ho! He would rather see this young man die in a 'pointless' war than have him go to county lockup for as many as 30 days, and pay a $1,500 fine. Gosh, he's valiant! With such an attitude I'm amazed he came home at all from VietNam. Of course we only have his say-so that he was there. Hmmm... I have heard that the fiercest fighting ever done in World War II was done in the Legion beer parlors afterwards ....
Secondly, there was no sarcasm whatsoever intended within my comment. I meant what I said. You did, indeed, point out the silver lining in this kid's dark cloud. Don't spoil our concurance by provoking a senseless argument, ok?
Third, I don't want to see anyone die in War, not a pointless one or otherwise. To quote Ben Franklin, "There has never been a good War or a bad Peace."
Fourth, I never claimed to have been in Vietnam (although I wouldn't mind to have been at Woodstock). Whatever gave you that idea?
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
I don't see Frank's comments as ranting or raving. He made a valid point, that we were basing our decisions on flimsy evidence, evidence from one side. Whether that evidence turns out to be representative of the actual events or not, Frank was right; several of us jumped the gun. We could have prefaced our words with comments such as "On the face of it, ...." or "From what we know,..." but we didn't.
By the way, VD, Franklin was, of course, wrong, and he surely knew it, otherwise, he would have pleaded with the other founding fathers to accept the British terms rather than rebel. Further, do you think that Chamberlain's "Peace in Our Time" was anything but a bad peace?
Posts: 17551 | Location: Lincoln Place, Granite City, IL, USA | Registered: 06-03-02
Well, let's see. I'm looking for a rant or a rave.
quote:
A second disorderly count accuses Lee of alarming first year teacher Nora Capron by writing that "as a teacher, don't be surprised on [sic] inspiring the first CG shooting,'' an apparent reference to Cary-Grove High. Lee said Thursday he was "completely shocked'' to be arrested Tuesday for his essay, especially because written instructions told kids not to "censor'' what they wrote. "In creative writing, you're told to exaggerate,'' said Lee. "It was supposed to be just junk. . . . "There definitely is violent content, but they're taking it out of context and making it something it isn't.'' "I have no intention of harming anyone,'' said Lee, who has been transferred to an alternative school setting. "I miss school.'' Lee's father, Albert Lee, who emigrated from China 32 years ago, said his son has a clean academic and police record. He, too, insisted his son's essay was not threatening but authorities "drew a conclusion before the investigation. They didn't want to do the investigation.'' However, the father would not comment on whether he believed authorities acted quickly because his son is of Asian heritage, as was the Virginia Tech campus shooter. Family therapist Michael Gurian, author of The Minds of Boys, said Allen Lee needs at least good counseling, but "If he was arrested solely based on those words, I don't see that as the most helpful course.''
Nah, nary a rant. Nary a rave. Just a series of calm statements, mostly quoting the participants.
Posts: 6596 | Location: British Columbia, Canada | Registered: 06-11-02
Originally posted by DorianGreyed: I don't see Frank's comments as ranting or raving. He made a valid point, that we were basing our decisions on flimsy evidence, evidence from one side. Whether that evidence turns out to be representative of the actual events or not, Frank was right; several of us jumped the gun. We could have prefaced our words with comments such as "On the face of it, ...." or "From what we know,..." but we didn't.
By the way, VD, Franklin was, of course, wrong, and he surely knew it, otherwise, he would have pleaded with the other founding fathers to accept the British terms rather than rebel. Further, do you think that Chamberlain's "Peace in Our Time" was anything but a bad peace?
DG, I don't know why you felt it necessary to edit my post, as my first question posed to "the babbleous one" was a serious one. Not a personal attack, like hers was against me. But, just a question.
Second, I disagree. Franklin was not wrong. If you can think of a good war or a bad peace, please list them here. Great Britain didn't start WWII. The Nazis did. England was forced to defend herself. The same case can be made for the Revolutionary War. America was just defending itself from England. King George sent the war to us, not the other way around. America defended itself, and won its independence. England was fighting to keep us enslaved. But, there was nothing good about those wars, except for their ending.
Every peaceful alternative should be thoroughly explored and exhausted before ever going to War, though, DG. Franklin knew this. War is death and destruction, and everyone suffers from it. Who stands to lose from peace?
" But it is also the case that school administrators have a far greater ability to restrict the speech of their students than the government has to restrict the speech of the general public
I'd hate to have the bunch of you "student exonerators" on the jury. My experience with high-school students would want me to listen to a little more evidence than we've seen so far. We have the student's account of what the teacher's instructions were. Could we please hear some corroboration from some of the rest of the class? What has the teacher herself had to say? I haven't seen anyone's testimony, other than the student and his lawyer. Are they the only ones the media reps interviewed? Did the teacher panic when she saw something more than we have been permitted to see? He could easily have bragged of having weapons in his locker, the principal may have checked and found something lethal, other students in the class might have reported some serious threats, etc.
Of course Scotty would never find fault with any future, present, or past marine, so obviously shouldn't survive a pre-emptive challenge to serve on this particular jury. And Valor already thinks Don Imus and that other fired schoolteacher represent a constitutional threat. But I would expect a little less tendency to jump to conclusions on flimsy evidence from Babs and Dorian. If homeland security ever charges either of you with some subversive act, you'd better hope you get someone more like me on the jury, before you're shipped off to Gitmo.
Just when did Germany attack England so that she had to "defend herself"? If my knowledge of history is correct, England declared war on Germany before England herself was attacked.
"Who stands to lose from peace?"
Ask the Czechs or the Slovaks about a good peace.
VD, you apparently your knowledge of history is sketchy at best. It seems all you can do is repeat slogans and mouth platitudes. That hardly makes for sound positions, does it? You certainly don't understand the concept behind Carthago delenda est. Sometimes, it is necessary to make war.
Posts: 17551 | Location: Lincoln Place, Granite City, IL, USA | Registered: 06-03-02
"I hope....that mankind will at length, as they call themselves responsible creatures, have the reason and sense enough to settle their differences without cutting throats..."
~Benjamin Franklin
"Wars are not paid for in wartime, the bill comes later."
~Benjamin Franklin
"When will mankind be convinced and agree to settle their difficulties by arbitration?"
~Benjamin Franklin
"All wars are follies, very expensive and very mischievous ones."
~Benjamin Franklin
"A highwayman is as much a robber when he plunders in a gang as when single; and a nation that makes an unjust war is only a great gang."
my first question posed to "the babbleous one" was a serious one.
Hey, if you're gonna name call, get it right ...she prefers Babalicious.
It's very easy to be idealistic when it comes to talking about the concept of war versus peace. No war is good, whatever the reason for entering it, but some wars are necessary.
Originally posted by DorianGreyed: "England was forced to defend herself."
Just when did Germany attack England so that she had to "defend herself"? If my knowledge of history is correct, England declared war on Germany before England herself was attacked.
Great Britain and Poland had a mutual aid treaty that required either country to come to the aid of the other in the event of war. When Germany invaded Poland, Britain was obligated to come to the aid of Poland by declaring war on Germany. This of course was exactly what Hitler wanted to have happen.
Here is more input:
Germany kept breaking the Treaty of Versailles that ended WW1. Finally when Germany invaded Poland, England had no choice but to declare war. Appeasement by Neville Chamberland had failed and only encouraged Germany and Hitler, so England knew that Hilter was bent on domination of Europe. England could not allow this to happen.
Answer:
Because Germany invaded Poland.
Did Germany have troops on ground in England during World War 2? Answer :
No. Germany planned Operation Sealion, to invade England but the operation was never carried out. All attacks on England were air attacks. There may have been a few German reconnaissance troops who landed on English territory, but no major troops were ever in England.
"Germany occupied two small English Channel islands in 1940. These were technically part of England. Otherwise no German troops entered the main part of England during WWII except as POWs"
"In Berlin on December 8, 1941, Adolf Hitler was elated. “We have ally that has not been defeated in 1500 years!” he told Minister of Propaganda Josef Goebbels. On December 11, 1941, Hitler gave a speech to the Reichstag. Confused and rambling, he compared his own childhood of poverty to that of the wealthy Roosevelt. He declared war on the United States."
Great Britain and Poland had a mutual aid treaty that required either country to come to the aid of the other in the event of war. When Germany invaded Poland, Britain was obligated to come to the aid of Poland by declaring war on Germany. This of course was exactly what Hitler wanted to have happen.
Here is more input:
Germany kept breaking the Treaty of Versailles that ended WW1. Finally when Germany invaded Poland, England had no choice but to declare war. Appeasement by Neville Chamberland had failed and only encouraged Germany and Hitler, so England knew that Hilter was bent on domination of Europe. England could not allow this to happen.
Answer:
Because Germany invaded Poland.
quote:
Originally posted by DorianGreyed: "Who stands to lose from peace?"
Ask the Czechs or the Slovaks about a good peace.
Meaning what, exactly?
quote:
VD, you apparently your knowledge of history is sketchy at best. It seems all you can do is repeat slogans and mouth platitudes. That hardly makes for sound positions, does it? You certainly don't understand the concept behind Carthago delenda est. Sometimes, it is necessary to make war.
Amazing that this "sketchy knowledge of history" was able to create and maintain a History Site (called "Vlar's Timeline of the World" http://www.angelfire.com/vt/VlarDracul/timeline.html ) for the past 8 years strong and counting.
What sort of evidence does one need for a "sound position"? For, where is the evidence of an idea or a thought, for that matter? Yet, they are real, are they not? It takes more than just smoking guns to constitute as "evidence". Arguments are made and won every day which are made of thin air, yet they may still make powerful points.
So England wasn't defending herself, as you said. And one of the Franklin quotes you so kindly provided mentions "an unust war", which certainly implies that there are just wars. Thanks for making my point.
Now can we get back to the student, his essay, and the charges?
Posts: 17551 | Location: Lincoln Place, Granite City, IL, USA | Registered: 06-03-02
Yes, they were due to the Treaty they shared with Poland.
Whether they be "just" or "unjust" remains in the eye of the beholder, or for politicans and history to determine. Yet still, none are "good". Necessary? Maybe, but only if and when it comes to them. And, even then, it is honestly all very unnecessary.
Originally posted by DorianGreyed: You certainly don't understand the concept behind Carthago delenda est. Sometimes, it is necessary to make war.
It seems that you are the one who doesn't understand your own statement, DG. It is said that if ever there was an unnecessary War, it was the battle of Carthage. The "Punic Wars" were fought because Rome said Carthage had "too much money".
That's like saying the reason we're in Iraq is because they have too much oil.
Well, what could we have expected but this from someone so gung ho! He would rather see this young man die in a 'pointless' war than have him go to county lockup for as many as 30 days, and pay a $1,500 fine. Gosh, he's valiant! With such an attitude I'm amazed he came home at all from VietNam. Of course we only have his say-so that he was there. Hmmm... I have heard that the fiercest fighting ever done in World War II was done in the Legion beer parlors afterwards ....
Secondly, there was no sarcasm whatsoever intended within my comment. I meant what I said. You did, indeed, point out the silver lining in this kid's dark cloud. Don't spoil our concurance by provoking a senseless argument, ok?
Third, I don't want to see anyone die in War, not a pointless one or otherwise. To quote Ben Franklin, "There has never been a good War or a bad Peace."
Fourth, I never claimed to have been in Vietnam (although I wouldn't mind to have been at Woodstock). Whatever gave you that idea?
Don't worry about it Valor D, I think that she got you mixed up with me. I am sure the sarcastic attitude is toward me and not you. Even if I don't say anything, she cannot ignore the opportunity to try and insult me. I consider it just plain gibberish, and could care less what she thinks or believes what I have done.
Posts: 3165 | Location: From the Mountains to the Sea. | Registered: 06-08-02
