What happened about the cheap oil that President Chavez of Venezuela was promising places in the US ?

London's colourful and leftist Mayor, Ken Livingstone, has just announced that Londoners can look forward to half-price bus passes for some citizens. These are to be financed by an oil deal with Chavez. The Mayor has signed a deal with a Venezuelan oil company for cheap fuel for the capital's 8,000 buses. In return, his officials will advise on street cleaning and other services such as waste management and recycling.

Critics have pointed out that Londoners have a 'GDP' equal to $28,000 per head whereas Venezuela has a GDP of $7,000 per head and it's odd for London to be accepting 'charity' from a comparatively poor country.On the other hand 4.5 litres of unleaded fuel (the old British gallon: the US one is 3.78 litres) costs $8 and Venezuelans pay only 12 US cents for one.

Some took it, others didn't. I think a village in Alaska changed its mind after Chavez smelled brimstone at the UN. Another city talked about tearing down a huge CITGO (Citgo Petroleum Corporation, a subsidiary of Petróleos de Venezuela S.A., the Venezuelan state-owned petroleum company) sign that has been a landmark overlooking historic Fenway Park, even though when Citgo attempted to disassemble the weatherbeaten sign years ago, widespread public affection for the sign led to protests at its threatened removal. The Boston Landmarks Commission ordered its disassembly postponed while the issue was debated. Sic transit gloria mundi.

The attempt to disassemble the sign and public outcry was before Petróleos de Venezuela owned CITGO (which it purchased from Southland Corporation). This is not to understate its position as a fixture at (or, actually outside of) Fenway Park.

Seems to me that selling oil at cut rate prices when they could get market rate for it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I have to wonder just what is the big picture...

He's just doing kind things to make bush look bad. It's similar to how Castro sends doctors to various countries to help with their health care problems, or when Castro offered to send thousands of doctors and health care workers to help Katrina victims. (Actually, they weren't victims yet, since the offer came before the hurricane hit New Orleans.) Castro cared no more for the victims than does Chave about the poor people's heating problems in the countrties he sends cheap heating oil to (the US, several South American countries, etc.). The US wisely refused Castro's offer, knowing that the crack FEMA health care and crisis management teams would get to New Orleans in a few weeks. After all, it was not like anyone needed help immediately or anything. It's not as if tens of thousands died or anything, and it's probably good for those people to keep their houses colder in winter. It does cut down on germ and bacteria growth.

You are right to be suspicious, LR. The poor and besieged in the US don't need any charity from abroad. They can wait for their government to do something sooner or later. It's not like people have ever died from exposure in their own homes, or gone without food or medicine in order to pay for heat. This is America, after all.

Yes, DG. Mayor Livingstone does not regard the oil deal as charity: his brief is to do the best by Londoners and if Chavez wants to help that's fine by him. As a political gesture it won't rock any boats here. The general public agree with Mayor Ken. Don't think we're sensitive or offended ! Mayor Livingstone enjoys a high level of popularity. That always seems surprising for a man who was historically left wing but it shows that, when it comes to choosing a mayor, people of all political colours want someone who gets them good results and so he regularly romps home, trouncing whatever candidates the parties field

Don't think Castro has offered to send any doctors to Britain, though In fact there has been some talk of not allowing doctors from outside the European Union to practise here. We also discovered recently that, a few years ago, we had been encouraging medical students to do training to be specialists and now we have got more specialists than we have current vacancies for them to practise their specialty Not that they'll necessarily suffer in pay much if they settle for being GPs. The National Health Service contract offered to doctors has just been favourably revised. Now the typical pay, after all deductions for expenses etc, to a family doctor (GP is'General Practitioner') under a National Health Service contract is £118,000 p.a.( $235,000 ), more if the practice runs a full in-house pharmacy. That's probably way short of what an American family doctor gets, being paid by insurance companies, but it's still quite a good sum here, and, of course, our medics can always opt to take just private clients if they wish (and our top people in conventional specialties take NHS patients as well as private ones)

Beware of Greeks bearing gifts!
Word to the wise.

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Originally posted by FredPuli:
That's probably way short of what an American family doctor gets...

According to this site:

"Averaging all specialties and all practice types, the average physician earns approximately $210,000 per year in the United States. Surgical sub-specialties and some other (highly procedural) specialties like Cardiology can reach $400,000 or so per year, whereas most office based medical specialties such as Family Practice, Internal Medicine and Pediatrics are closer to $140,000 or slightly more."

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Seems to me that selling oil at cut rate prices when they could get market rate for it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I have to wonder just what is the big picture...

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Beware of Greeks bearing gifts!
Word to the wise.

Those people are tricky!That damned oil probably doesn't even burn!

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Enemies' gifts are no gifts and do no good. Sophocles

I bet you would take a lollipop from a stranger. Fred.

I don't automatically or habitually think strangers are "up to no good", and when someone brings me gifts, I'm more inclined to be grateful than to label them as "enemies". Is it just Chavez or the whole of Venezuela you consider your enemy?

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Chavez has been called the "anti-Bush." He has embraced virtually every enemy of the United States, past and present, from Saddam Hussein to Moammar Khaddafy to the Taliban and Iran.

A friend of my enemy, is my enemy.

Reference

But Hussein was the US's friend for a long time. The US helped put him in power and maintain him there. The US also helped the Taliban when they were 'freedom fighters' opposing the USSR in Afghanistan. Khaddafy is now a buddy, too, in some ways, having given up his nascent WMD program. Reagan (illegaly) sold weapons to Iran.

All those "enemies" you mention have also been "friends" of the US. International realpolitik is a little too complex to be covered by trite proverbs.

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All those "enemies" you mention have also been "friends" of the US. International realpolitik is a little too complex to be covered by trite proverbs.

Things change over time. Have you ever lost a friend over time? I have, and I know many who have also.

If he is willing to change his ways, maybe he will become a friend in the future. Who knows?

Japan and Germany were enemies at one time.
Not now.

So how have things changed in these cases?

How is the fundamentalist Islamic government of Iran that Reagan sold weapons to different from the fundamentalist Islamic government of Iran that is now the US's enemy? If it is different, why all the sabre-rattling?

When did the Taliban change?

Japan and Germany became peaceful democracies. What comparable changes over time have occured in Libya, Iran and on the Pakistan/Afghanistan border?

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Originally posted by newnickname:
Japan and Germany became peaceful democracies.

After what significant event? hmmm

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After what significant event? hmmm

Exactly! Good point Kendor.

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Originally posted by Scotty:

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Chavez has been called the "anti-Bush." He has embraced virtually every enemy of the United States, past and present, from Saddam Hussein to Moammar Khaddafy to the Taliban and Iran.

A friend of my enemy, is my enemy.

Reference

On no less an authority than Pat Robertson. I'm convinced!

Scotty, it's all very well being Laocoon, but what exactly is the 'Trojan Horse' in Chavez giving cheap oil? What is the danger or potential danger to Londoners, or anyone else ? Are a few men hidden in a free barrel, brought within the city's walls, going to sneak out at night, open the gates of the City, and admit the enemy hordes (as with the Greeks and the gifted horse) ?

What's the analogy with the Greeks and Troy?