"... economic realities are overpowering those who maintain that universities should impart universal knowledge, not pave the way to a job. Too many European graduates are getting welfare checks instead of paychecks.
Europe's universities don't provide the skills and research needed to help the continent prosper and compete with rapidly growing economies in Asia and elsewhere, according to international rankings, school presidents, students and European Union officials." ************************************************** 11-20-06, 11:27 AM FredPuli The link says that Britain's universities are 'increasingly selective' . News to me: they have always been highly selective, all requiring grades at a given level for entry. The more popular or academic the course, the higher the entry standard. To get into Oxford or Cambridge to read (study) anything requires three straight A grades, minimum (three A starred preferred), in the three subjects taken in the national academic exams at 18 for university entry, plus a good record in the exams taken at 15 or 16 . Other universities have lower levels of entry requirement, though not in subjects such as medicine, veterinary medicine, law or architecture.
All universities, even the least, set standards and are selective. All would expect two or, more likely, three reasonably good passes minimum for any course, with a good history at age 16, and the standards are universally high in all traditional academic courses. Entry to some lesser institution to read 'media studies' would be to the lower end, probably Wink
The universities have been complaining that too many students pass or get good grades in the exams at 18.This makes the selection process much harder for them. This is a result of the government seeing to it that the exams were steadily getting easier, for political ends, so that the government can claim that it is raising the standards (See? Look how many get good grades now against those who got those grades thirty years ago!). Oxford and Cambridge are two that have introduced their own specialist tests for some subjects, notably medicine and law, to see whether the candidates are not just good at getting grades but have more rounded intellect.At present these universities are overwhelmed with applicants for these subjects who have straight top grades.
The days when someone got to university, or got preferential treatment on application, because their father was an alumnus or was rich are very long gone. That was the story pre WW2.
Incidentally, before we had tuition fees charged to everyone and 'student loans', we had student grants.These covered living expenses.There were no fees. These grants were means tested, on a sliding scale, so that the children of ordinary or poor families were not disadvantaged.A minimum grant was payable to every student, regardless of means. The fees chargeable now, payable on a student loan, are regulated to a certain fixed maximum. ************************************************** 11-20-06, 07:32 PM dance girl
quote: Originally posted by FredPuli: Incidentally, before we had tuition fees charged to everyone and 'student loans', we had student grants.These covered living expenses.There were no fees. These grants were means tested, on a sliding scale, so that the children of ordinary or poor families were not disadvantaged.A minimum grant was payable to every student, regardless of means. The fees chargeable now, payable on a student loan, are regulated to a certain fixed maximum.
Yes, I went to university in 1979 in the UK and because I was the eldest of four kids, I qualified for a full grant. Thank goodness there was such a thing back then, because otherwise I couldn't have gone. Even then I had to work at weekends and in the holidays to supplement it. My daughter is looking at universities here in Canada and the cost is about $15 - $20,000 per year. No grants here that I know of. Although we do have a system of student loans. However, students come out of university here so burdened with debt that it is not unknown for them to declare bankruptcy just so they can start again with a clean slate. I find that here it takes very little to qualify for a general place at university too, especially in general Arts and Science courses.
Another point is that in the last few years students here have been combining university and college couses..either going to university first and then completing a college course..or the other way round. Just to give themselves an edge in the job market. ************************************************** 11-20-06, 07:36 PM juanruiz
quote: However, students come out of university here so burdened with debt that it is not unknown for them to declare bankruptcy just so they can start again with a clean slate.
I wonder if they realize they are murdering their credit rating for years to come? ************************************************** 11-20-06, 08:16 PM dance girl I don't know all the rules, but i don't think its that hard to build up a credit rating here. The newspapers are full of ads offering loans and financing to people that have histories of bankruptcy. I think too that many ex students don't even consider it wrong to do such a thing to get out of paying back a debt.
11-20-06, 08:22 PM juanruiz
quote: The newspapers are full of ads offering loans and financing to people that have histories of bankruptcy.
Yeah, but check the interest rates in the fine print. ************************************************** 11-20-06, 08:38 PM dance girl oh don't get me wrong, i agree with you. i just don't think they are looking that far ahead. ************************************************** 11-20-06, 08:57 PM juanruiz
quote: i just don't think they are looking that far ahead.
Yeah. I wonder why someone along the line isn't teaching them about basic financial issues. ************************************************** 11-20-06, 09:16 PM dance girl Frown Yeh well i wonder that too. My eldest is still in high school and while they are taught some basics there about managing a budget and credit etc, I do have to wonder about some of the values these kids are leaving school and university with.
I'm not sure if its an attitude that is pervasive throughout the western world, but here in Canada, kids have everything they need. The economy is just so buoyant. Banks and loan companies are fighting for customers, there is no shortage of jobs. And many of the kids leaving university now wouldn't remember a time when the economy was any different. Its just this "live for today"sort of attitude. I know that this is a generalization, and there are people like that in every generation but it does seem pretty prevalent here right now. ************************************************** 11-20-06, 09:22 PM juanruiz Yes. Problem is, adults are just as guilty. Take a look at the consumer debt for western nations.
11-20-06, 09:33 PM dance girl Yep and I should add that we as parents are passing on these values to our kids.
I'm not sure what the answer is when laptops, MP3 players etc are the norm. with Christmas coming up, i'm starting to think about requests for more "stuff" Eek
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