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Congratulations to the Southeastern Conference for hiring its first ever African American football head coach. When Sylvester Croom was hired to lead the Mississippi State football program he became the first Black head coach in the 71-year history of SEC football. Sadly enough, there were only 4 Black coaches in all of NCAA DIvision 1-A this season (out of 117 schools).
So, do you think we will ever see a time when people are hired (or not hired) in sports, based on their ability and potential, rather than the color of their skin ? ++++++++++++++++ 12-08-03, 02:53 PM Kwll I say "Good for MSU" and I think he will do a great job. We can only hope that the time dogspit speaks of does come to pass.
Does anyone else find it peculiar that this happened in the deep South? Where are all the black head coaches in the supposedly non-prejudiced parts of the nation?
12-08-03, 03:34 PM DorianGreyed Kwll, I for one am not surprised that the first black coach of the Southeastern Conference happened in the deep south. Where else would he be located, Nebraska?
SEC Members
University of Alabama Tuscaloosa, Ala.
University of Arkansas Fayetteville, Ark.
Auburn University Auburn, Ala.
University of Florida Gainesville, Fla.
University of Georgia Athens, Ga.
University of Kentucky Lexington, Ky
Louisiana State University Baton Rouge, La.
University of Mississippi Oxford, Miss.
Mississippi State University Starkville, Miss.
University of South Carolina Columbia, S.C.
University of Tennessee Knoxville, Tenn.
Vanderbilt University Nashville, Tenn.
[This message was edited by Doriangreyed on 12-08-03 at 03:44 PM.]
12-08-03, 04:12 PM DorianGreyed "Every other BCS* conference has had at least one black head coach, but a lack of diversity among major college football head coaches is not exclusive to the SEC." - http://www.canoe.ca/Slam031201/fbc_cro-ap.html
*Bowl Championship Series "The BCS, which runs through the 2005 regular season and 2006 bowl season, consists of the Rose Bowl, Nokia Sugar Bowl, FedEx Orange Bowl and the Tostitos Fiesta Bowl. Before the start of the 1998 season, those bowls joined with the Atlantic Coast, Big East, Big 12, Big Ten, Pacific-10 and Southeastern Conferences and the University of Notre Dame to form the BCS. Conference USA also signed on to the agreement." - http://www.orangebowl.org/OB.php?sec=bcs
So, the SEC ws the last of all those conferences to hire a black head football coach. "Does anyone else find it peculiar that this happened in the deep South?" - Nope, not one bit.
12-08-03, 04:59 PM methos First black coach at a predominately white school, btw, was Dennis Green at Northwestern in 1980. It amazes me that there are currently only 4 black head coaches in Div I-A, despite 43% of the players at that level and a majority of the Heisman winners (since 1970) being black.
12-09-03, 11:26 AM CurtisLoew There are tons of qualified minority candidates, but the fact is that there is always a firestorm of controversy when a minority coach is fired. And, as we all know, all coaches will be fired at some point in their careers. I think schools are worried about the backlash of the potential firing, which is more an indictment of our society than the schools.
So, to answer your question, dog: unfortunately, no.
12-09-03, 02:29 PM Jelp01 I'm glad to see Mississippi State make this move. I can still remember when black players weren't welcome at SEC schools. It's a step, a small one to be sure. Unfortunately, I think black coaches will be few and far between for a very long time to come.
12-22-03, 07:52 AM Kwll Yes DG, I DO know where the SEC is and know which schools belong to it! Roll Eyes My comment was referenced to perhaps the Big East or Big 10 (+1).
12-22-03, 10:34 AM DorianGreyed Kwll, according to the source I cited, both the Big East and Big Ten have already had black coaches. Apparently, the SEC was the last of all the Bowl Championship Series conferences to hire a black coach. I do not find that surprising. I certainly understand what Curtis is saying about the unfair publicity (and potential legal problems) of letting a black coach go. Yet those other conferences have managed to face those potential difficulties and hire a black coach before now. Your first post seems (to me) to be somehow saying that the SEC was in the forefront of hiring, when the facts of the matter show otherwise. You asked "Does anyone else find it peculiar that this happened in the deep South? Where are all the ?" I answered. I don't find it peculiar that the SEC is the last conference (of the BCS group), and the "black head coaches in the supposedly non-prejudiced parts of the nation" have already shown up. I assume that some have come and gone. But the fact remains that the SEC was the last BCS conference to hire a black head coach. I congratulate them in joining the 20th Century.
Dog, to answer your question, I don't think I will see it in any across-the-board way. When I was younger, I looked forward to the day that people would be treated as people, not as members of a group. I assumed that it would happen in my lifetime. Now, having seen more of life, I do not, and I honestly do not know if my son will see it in his lifetime, either. Too many, on all sides of the issue, treat facts as if they were chosing from a menu, accepting only the ones whose flavor pleases them.
01-05-04, 01:06 AM coldfuse I applaud MSU's decision, and feel compelled to point out that the SEC has had black coaches in other high-profile sports. Among them are Nolan Richardson and Tubby Smith who have led Arkansas and Kentucky, respectively, to national basketball championships.
In recent years I have grown weary with the perception - dare I say prejudice? - some social engineers have with respect to the South and racism. We have a long way to go; but whatever your perception of Southern racial hatred (cutting both ways), there is love between the races in equal measure. This simply happens between people that have lived generation after generation in close proximity.
I offer the following as a case in point. A couple of years ago I visited my sister in Folsom, People's Republic of California, and attended one of my nephew's junior football practices. I introduced myself to some of the other participant's parents' and one said, "It sounds like you're from the South."
"Yes, I'm from North Carolina" (I thought this was nicer than "Duh" as my accent is unmistakable).
"Why are you so prejudiced there?" he asked.
The other parents, a little shocked, awaited my response. Despite the do-gooder's obvious lack of manners -- which are still important here -- I calmly gazed over the field of youngsters.
"How many kids you reckon you got goin' out for this here football team?" I asked, laying the accent on thicker than peanut butter in February.
"About seventy."
"Uh-huh." I looked the practice field over once again. "And how many of those kids are white?"
He and the other parents took a racial inventory of the field. "I think there is one hispanic boy." The others nodded their heads.
"My fault. What I meant to ask was 'how many of those seventy kids are white?'"
Another parent seemed to be catching on and proclaimed his solution: "Sixty Nine!"
"Well," I continued. "There's a middle school practices right across the street from my house. I don't know it for a fact, but I'll bet there's not a single hispanic boy out there practicing with them."
The do-gooder started smiling and the others bobbed their heads up and down.
"Now, I'd say they ain't got but about fifty boys goin' out for their team in all. Y'all sure do like your football here!"
They all were grinning now and a couple of dads seemed to puff out their chests.
"An' probably ain't but about twenty five or thirty of them white kids."
The guy who came up with "sixty nine" earlier was the first to make a mathematical connection. "You mean, almost half of the boys on that team are black?"
"Seems about right," I said. "Course, I don't reckon anybody's done an official race count. I don't think nobody cares much, long as they's a-havin' fun."
I thoroughly enjoyed watching the remainder of the practice with my sister and her friend. None of the other parents seemed to know the friend, who would clap and shout approval to her son from time to time. In Spanish.
01-05-04, 01:20 AM coldfuse Oh - almost forgot to mention it - Damon Evans was hired a couple of weeks ago by Georgia and is the first black Athletic Director in the Southeastern Conference. Among his employees are Dennis Felton, UGA's basketball coach.
In addition to Coach Croom, I believe the other four black Division 1-A football coaches are:
Tyrone Willingham, Notre Dame Bobby Wilson, Michigan State Fritz Hill, San Jose State Tony Samuel, New Mexico State
Unfortunately, Curtis, there are not as many qualified candidates as you might think. There are very few black coaches at a high assistant level in Division 1-A. The pipeline has to get fuller for any progress to be made at the head coaching level.
02-02-04, 12:26 PM teeceeum Thanks 'fuse. I too, have grown weary of hearing how racially predjucdiced I must be since I'm from the South. I've been a few places over the years, including a few of the "enlightened" Northern cities. My observations lead me to conclude that the problem is no greater in the South than it is elsewhere.
As for "my" school, Lovey Smith, the recently hired NFL Bears coach, was previously Tennessee's defensive coordinator. UT was also the first SEC school to have black players on its football team. And Allen Houston's dad was the head basketball coach for a number of years.
In my opinion, those who point a finger toward the South and declare that we are racists are grossly uninformed and demonstrate a peculiar predjudice of their own.
03-31-04, 03:31 PM Kwll thanks fuse, was the point I was alluding to. DG, I did not say that the "North" had not had any black coaches, merely that they also have not had many. It is a national trend, not one confined to the South alone. Yeah, sorry, took me a while to look back here again, I had forgotten about it.
04-01-04, 01:37 AM DorianGreyed I had not forgotten, Kwll. In fact, I have been thinking about it a great deal since Fuse's post about the boys' football. While I will not change my statements of fact before, I understand now that some portion of my belief about the South stems from my own childhood. As one of "those dirty foreign kids from across the tracks" (a direct quote from a classmate's mother after my family moved), I remember that the worst of those who taunted us lived in an area called West Granite. Almost to a family, they came from one particular southern state. They had a gang, we had a gang. The weapons were crude by today's standards - knives, bricks, and baseball bats, and I was fortunate to be too young to have taken part in any major group confrontations. (Later, I did have a slight disagreement with 3 of them, but they mistook the ability to throw and run with a football for the abiility to fight. They also didn't understand how cranky wrestlers can be when dieting.) That is part of my upbringing, and something I have to deal with. I see that it is wrong of me to see the South today through the eyes of that kid years ago. Whatever the truth of the matter, I can see that my views are tinted by personal events. As I said, that is something I have to deal with, and try to eliminate.
04-16-04, 01:52 PM Kwll DG, I never hold a grudge especially against one as wise as you (yes I was serious). I can understand your feelings on it especially given how sociologists view the importance of what occuers in our childhood on later years. I for one grew up naive about race, was raised in South Miami with about 50% black and white lower middle class kids as I was myself. Didn't even realize there was an issue until I left home at 17. So I guess I tend not to see others racist motives so much as someone raised differently would and have underestimated the impact of it until later in my life. We all must be vigilant to it.
04-16-04, 02:28 PM dogspit I am sorry if anyone thought my original post was designed specifically as a poke at the South. Quite the opposite, it was meant to herald a moment that I think many could not have conceived just a few decades ago. I also wanted opinions on whether you believe race is a factor in hiring in sports (both collegiate and professional). I can say, from the posts here, that there is obviously still a long way to go, both in how people are treated by color, and in how we conceive the way people are treated.
Again, apologies for any bad feelings that my post had caused to surface.
04-16-04, 04:06 PM Kwll hey ds, good to see ya. No, I think its good to discuss these things if for no other reason than the consensus that DG and I have apparently reached. It took a long time for the reality that thaere are racists out there to penetrate my rhino hide because I have never seen that trait in myself. Don't feel any balme my friend, I think those in this thread know each other well enough to not get too emotional about it. Smile
04-16-04, 11:43 PM DorianGreyed Dog, I echo Kwll's comments. This is a good thread - it has a good ending. Thanks for posting, and thank you, Kwll, for your understanding of my long-overdue look inward. Fuse's post here and in a few other places, and some discussions with him in Chat a long time ago finally got me looking in the mirror. Thanks, Fuse.
04-17-04, 10:05 PM coldfuse Dog, I certainly didn't see the post as a poke at the South and thought it an appropriate opportunity to offer some additional perspective.
This has been an excellent thread.
12-01-04, 03:49 PM coldfuse FOLLOWUP NEWS
The number of black coaches among 117 Division I-A schools is now at two: Karl Dorrell of UCLA and Sylveser Croom of MSU. Recent events -
: Tyrone Willingham was fired by Notre Dame after three seasons, with two years remaining on his contract. The Irish were 6-5 this season.
: New Mexico State fired Tony Samuel last week.
: Fritz Hill resigned at San Jose State.
Source: article by Chris Dufresnf of The Los Angeles Times, reported in The Charlotte Observer on Wednesday, December 1, 2004, page 3C.
I heard about the Notre Dame coach on the local news yesterday or the day before. The sportscaster commented that the poor record wasn't all the coach's fault, that the stringent academic policy hampered the coach's efforts. What a pity that Notre Dame ws denied a fine football team simply because her athletes had to actually get good grades. What is next, requiring them to have actually graduated from high school?
12-01-04, 08:21 PM teeceeum Although I don't think it was racially motivated, Ty Willingham didn't get anything close to a fair shake in my opinion. As I understand it, no coach before him has been fired before the term of their contracts had expired. He had only been there three years, which means that he was really only in the first year of playing players that he had recruited. The standard contract seems to be 5 years. That is to give the coach the chance to recruit and mold his own team. Schools should live up to that committment at a minimum.
I'm afraid that Title IX has meant that major college football has to be successful and successful right now. It's revenues are the primary support for the mostly revenue-losing Title IX programs. The University of Tennessee's women's basketball program is without question the most successful in the country over the course of its existence. Yet it sells out very few games in its 25,000 seat home arena. And many of those tickets are "paper" (as in "paper the house").
I'm afraid that Ty Willingham is a victim of fiscal realities. And I hate that.
12-01-04, 08:48 PM CincyOnTheRoad Well, TC, look at the bright side:
This year, you get to watch Orlando "Tubby" Smith lead the NCAA all-time wins leader, my University of Kentucky Wildcats to basketball championship number 8. Razz
(btw, I hated that Wade Houston got the job at UT, as I wanted him to come to UK and bring his son, who was probably the last Vol to have any measure of success against the mighty Wildcats Razz Wink)
12-01-04, 10:45 PM juanruiz Hey, that's NCAA Division I athletics: you win or you're gone. That's why football coaches make more than university presidents. That's why there are scandals. That's why, for many, a university is simply a pretext for athletics.
12-02-04, 11:42 AM teeceeum
quote:Originally posted by CincyOnTheRoad: (btw, I hated that Wade Houston got the job at UT, as I wanted him to come to UK and bring his son, who was probably the last Vol to have any measure of success against the mighty Wildcats Razz Wink)
Believe me Cincy, we hate it that you didn't get Wade too. Roll Eyes
12-14-04, 09:18 AM coldfuse Willingham joins Washington Our of the frying pan and into the fire? Willingham is Washington's third coach in four years!
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
