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Originally posted by FredPuli:
Ewood and I evidently saw the same programme tonight. I think the main conclusion is that Oliver Stone is guilty ! As a historian said, millions of Americans saw "JFK" the fim by Stone; it was a travesty even of the known undisputed facts and full of 'artistic licence'; yet they will never read a serious history. They assume that the factual basis of the film is sound . It is no wonder then that so many believe in a conspiracy.

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And it is no wonder that so many people around the world think us Americans as stupid, when too many of us Americans get our history (and science) lessons from fictional TV shows and movies!

[We seem to have lost two posts, one from Ewood about Hollywood grossly distorting history and this following]

Question on a 'phone-in quiz here in the UK:

" What happened in Dallas on 22nd November 1963?"
Contestant : " I don't know. I wasn't watching it then"
( Reported this week in Private Eye magazine's 'Dumb Britain' feature)

See ? We are not all historians!

I too saw the recent film about the asassination, and was very interested in the computer re-inactment of the "magic bullet". What the programme did say was that Jack Ruby was a non -entity who happened to be in the station at just the right time and killed Oswald because of his love for J.F.K.

Quote by Ewood regarding Jack Ruby. "Ruby, meanwhile, was a sandwich short of a picnic, worshipped Kennedy and brought what he saw as justice to the man who had destroyed his beloved President. Ruby believed he was a hero."

This same man who idolised Kennedy was two minutes away from his hero's motorcade and yet he preferred to spend the time in a newspaper office rather than see his "hero".
Jack Ruby had Mafia connections. He was sent to Dallas by the mob to look after their interests there. He hosted a mini Mafia meeting in one of his clubs a couple of months before the assassination, and he was an associate of Sam Trafficante. "One sandwich short of a picnic"? I think not. He was a violent and devious character, who told the Warren Commission "I have been used for a purpose".

Regarding the conspiracy theory-everybody appears to believe that conspiracy theory could only involve the Government, but that doesn't rule out another possibility, i.e. the Mafia and or rogue elements of the C.I.A. Oliver Stone's movie retold the plot according to Jim Garrison who, for his own ends, proposed the Government as the originators of the assassination.
Regarding the Zapruder film. if you go to the following site Fatal shot "The Headshot (Frame313)" you will see what I believe to be the flash of the bullet which hit J.F.K. blowing his head apart. If it is the flash of the shot (and not as others have described it "an insect" or "a flash of sunlight") then the shot could not have come from the Book depository. It would have had to come from behind the right shoulder Zapruder. ( I would recommend that the movie film be viewed as it shows the flash quite clearly.)

To have come from the Book depository the track of the flash would have been from about "ten o'clock"in the picture. It appears to be from one o'clock which would confirms Zapruder's statement that a shot came from behind and to the right of where he was standing. If it did, then there was another gunman. If there was another gunman, there was a conspiracy.

J.G. I have sent off for the book you mention as it one of the few I haven't read on the assassination. I will return to the subject after reading it.

Just as a matter of interest, in the first part of this discussion, John Galt states that "The usual 2-D drawings of the two men do not take into account the 3 dimensions of the real world. Governor Connaly was seated off center to Kennedy and on a lower seat."
If you go to the following site Dealy Plaza the picture taken in Dealy Plaza rather disputes this comment. Or do my eyes decieve me?

From this site:

You can see photos of the vast height differences of the limo and thus, the height differences of the two men, along with how they were offset, including a front view showing them offset along with a video clip from a film of that day showing the same thing, along with a diagram of the relative position of the two men based on all the photographic evidence.

We may just have to agree to disagree Fourbrick! Oh well! Regardless, I think we can both agree that this is still a fascinating topic. I wish you well and hope you continue to enjoy reading all about this fascinating topic. Good luck!

Thanks for your good wishes. J.G. Just a couple of points before we finish. Your "items" made above.

1. Vast height differences-- can't argue with the photo. but it just shows the seats not the people in them. The jump seat is lower but does not appear to be offset to the left in the picture.
2 The two men-- seems to me that they are at the same height in the picture you quote (
as they are in the one I quote)
3.They don't appear to be offset in the picture I quote.
4. The video-- too indistinct for me to comment on.
5. The diagram. Not an offiical one. As it says - based on photographic evidence. Whose photographic evidence?

Finally no comments about Frame 313?
No comments about Ruby being a Mafia associate?

As you say we may just have to disagree.

Cheers.

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Originally posted by Fourbrick:
Finally no comments about Frame 313?
No comments about Ruby being a Mafia associate?

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Kennedy’s death certificate records him at 72 inches (6 feet). Lyndon Johnson came in at 6 feet 3 inches. Johnson’s car seat and Kennedy’s car seat are clearly more than 3 inches in height difference.

I still find it almost impossible to believe that a 1960's amateur film camera could capture a high speed rifle bullet in mid flight. It takes high-end, high speed cameras loaded with special high speed film moving at an incredibly fast rate to be able to film a bullet in flight.

As for Ruby and the mafia: The FBI had many audio surveillance tapes of various mafia members taken before and after the assassination, and there is nothing on any of them to suggest they had anything whatsoever to do with the murder of Kennedy or with Ruby. Just because Ruby was a violent man with a problem with authority doesn’t mean he was a mafia member.

Thanks for the information about the relative heights of J.F.K. and Lyndon Johnson, John. Of what relevance is it?

Re the Zapruder film, sorry to see that you find it almost impossible to believe that a 1960's amateur film could capture a high speed bullet in mid flight. Didn't say it did, although I have seen many amateur films from WWII which show tracer bullets. However, if as it would seem Zapruder believed, that the shot came from over his right shoulder, the bullet would be travelling away from Zapruder towards the limo at a low trajectory which would keep it in frame for a relatively long time. Anybody who would like to see what I mean can go to Zapruder film and look for themselves. If it was not the flash of a bullet, I ask again, what is it?

Re Jack Ruby, J.G. I didn't say he was ammeber of the Mafia. I said he associated with Mafia people. Methinks you need to read a lot more about this person. Amongst other things, he was a gun runner for arms against Castro together with members of the Mafia.

"In 1958, Ruby wrote a letter to the State Department's Office of Munitions Controls "requesting permission to negotiate the purchase of firearms and ammunition from an Italian firm." (Wasn't the rifle supposedly used by Oswald, Italian, a Mannlicher Carcano
And the name "Jack Rubenstein" [Ruby's birth name] was listed in a 1959 Army Intelligence report on U.S. arms dealers. Although located by clerks of these two federal agencies in 1963, both documents are today inexplicably missing.
Another person who was apparently involved in this gun smuggling to Cuba was David Ferrie. Born in 1918, he worked in the late 1940s as a pilot for an oil drilling firm that had jobs in Latin America. In 1951, he became an Eastern Airlines pilot and moved to New Orleans. There, he also became a leader in the Civil Air Patrol (CAP), where is reported to have befriended a young Marxist named Lee Harvey Oswald. Ferrie started a secret group within the CAP, called the Omnipotents, which "trained cadets in what to do in the event of a major attack on the United States." The House Select Committee on Assassinations summarized his activities at the end of the 1950s thus:
[quote] Ferrie's job and ownership of an airplane enabled him to travel frequently around the country with relative ease. He told officials he frequently travled to Texas and other parts of the South, including Miami. He also visited New York on occasion. The amount of time Ferrie spent in these other cities could not be determined. In August 1959, while in Miami, Ferrie was put under 24-hour surveillance by customs agents who believed he was involved in gun smuggling. Following a brief investigation, including a tapping of his telephone conversations, it was determinted that Ferrie ws not involved in any illegal activity, but merely planning an outing for his "scouts." The investigation was dropped. [vol 10, pg 109]

(This is the same Ferrie who trained Oswald in the Civil air Patrol in 1955.Strange that an arms for Cuba pilot knew Oswald and also was involved like Ruby in gun-running.Co-incidence?)

In 1958,Ruby’s weapons-smuggling network developed. Ruby's own role broadened when one of his Dallas gambling partners, Lewis J. McWillie, moved to Havana to become manager of the Mob-owned Tropicana Hotel.

Ruby shipped weapons to Cuba through McWillie. Another Ruby associate from Dallas, Russell Douglas Matthews, a convicted narcotics smuggler, also opened a bar business in Havana in 1958.

In the summer of 1959, Santos Trafficate , a Mafia boss, was imprisoned in Trescornia camp, one of Castro’s detention centers in Havana,Cuba. A fellow inmate, John Wilson, of English origin , contacted the American Embassy, after learning that Oswald had been murdered by Jack Ruby, and told them that Santos had been visited several times by an American gangster type named Ruby. He would regularly bring food to the prison. Two witnesses, one of them the camp superintendant, confirmed that Tafficante and his companions did receive special meals from one of the Havana Hotels. According to Ruby’s travel documents, Ruby stayed at the Capri Hotel, Trafficante had a major interest in the casino at this same hotel. The Assassinations committee stated flatly that Ruby had been connected with three other Trafficante associates.

So we have Ruby , who was a gun runner to Cuba, involved with Santos Trafficate and Hugh McWillie, known Mafia members, and and Russell Douglas another Ruby associate who was a convicted narcotics smuggler. And he was just a violent man?

[This message was edited by Fourbrick on 12-15-03 at 12:15 PM.]

[This message was edited by Fourbrick on 12-15-03 at 12:25 PM.]

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Originally posted by Fourbrick:
Thanks for the information about the relative heights of J.F.K. and Lyndon Johnson, John. Of what relevance is it?

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I pointed out the height differences between the two men because you noted that the differences in the heights of the seats they sat in didn't take into account the two men's heights. With these known numbers (seat's and men's heights), the bullet wounds of the two men match up to a shot fired from above and behind the two men - in the vicinity near the top of the Texas School Book Depository.

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Originally posted by Fourbrick:
Re the Zapruder film, sorry to see that you find it almost impossible to believe that a 1960's amateur film could capture a high speed bullet in mid flight. Didn't say it did, although I have seen many amateur films from WWII which show tracer bullets.

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Yes, but Kennedy wasn't shot with a tracer. Besides, the very existence of tracer bullets is proof that it is difficult or impossible to see regular bullets in flight. Tracers are used so that the gunners can visibly move their line of fire onto target - something regular bullets can't aid in their shooters.

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Originally posted by Fourbrick:
However, if as it would seem Zapruder believed, that the shot came from over his right shoulder, the bullet would be travelling away from Zapruder towards the limo at a low trajectory which would keep it in frame for a relatively long time. Anybody who would like to see what I mean can go to http://cdo.co.uk/jfk/download.php?show=zapruder and look for themselves. If it was not the flash of a bullet, I ask again, what is it?

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If I am seeing what I think you are pointing out, that appears like a portion of blood, and/or brain tissue, and/or skull fragments flying up and out of the top front of the president's head after a bullet entered the back of his head forcing out the contents of the now-fatally-wounded president's skull.

What is your own belief on this whole subject? In other words, just who do you think is responsible for killing JFK? And from where did they shoot? And how many shooters do you think there were? And who (if anyone) do you think is responsible for any subsequent cover-up? And why did they do it?

The thing that worries me about the Kennedy assassination 50 years on is that it is possible to countenance the idea of a conspiracy by government agencies, it is possible to countenance the idea of a conspiracy by major criminal entities, and that it is possible that two men with guns, each acting independently, could cause such a furore.

There do seem to be some questions that have not been satisfactorily answered, but I'm quite sure that we, the general public, are never going to get to know the real truth.

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Originally posted by Fourbrick:
Thanks for the information about the relative heights of J.F.K. and Lyndon Johnson, John. Of what relevance is it?
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I pointed out the height differences between the two men because you noted that the differences in the heights of the seats they sat in didn't take into account the two men's heights. With these known numbers (seat's and men's heights), the bullet wounds of the two men match up to a shot fired from above and behind the two men - in the vicinity near the top of the Texas School Book Depository.
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Sorry J.G. I was unaware that L.B.J. was in the car with J.F.K. I thought it was John Connally.

Ref the Zapruder film, I understand what you say about the tracer bullets, but my comments were to show that bullets CAN be seen on film. The reason tracers are put there, as you are aware, is to show the marksman where his bullets are going because the human eye cannot follow the flight of a bullet. However this does not preclude the fact that a camera film could.

Regarding your proposal that the flash could be skull fragments after the shot, this falls down because the flash is before the explosion of the skull and not afterwards. If you view the film itself you will see, if it is slowed down that the flash is before and not after the skull disintegration, so it could hardly be that.

My beef with the assassination, and after the abortive Warren Commission, is as the police say "Cherchez las femme". Find out who wanted him killed and who had the wherewithall to do it.

J.F.K. had upset the Mafia, after they had helped him to get elected in Illinois, after his father Joe, a former bootleg liquor supplier himself, had asked for Mafia help in ensuring his son's election. After he was elected, J.F.K. and his brother Robert began a crusade against Crime Syndicates, causing the Mafia to call (and this is ironic considering who was saying it) the Kennedys "dishonest". Robert Kennedy is famous for his investigations into big crime, and Jimmty Hoffa, leader of the Teamster's union, and himself involved with crime syndicates, even threatened in 1952 to have R. Kennedy shot or bombed.

There is also the connection between the C.I.A and the Mafia in gun running to Cuba. The Mafia even helped the C.I.A.in their pantomime schemes to assassinate Castro. Elements of the Southern C.I.A were devastated at J.F.K's reluctance to further attack Cuba after the failed Bay of Pigs operation.

So we have both the Mafia and elements of the C.I.A. who were in the very least unfavourable to J.F.K.

Let's look at Oswald. He is considered to be a deranged loner. Loner he was, but deranged. I think not. He had for many years been involved with Naval Intelligence at Atsuga Base in the Phillipines (from where the U2 used to take off to spy on the U.S.S.R.) He was an intelligent guy who kept himself to himself. (Was his involvement with Naval Intelligence the source of his defection to Russia?) His wife Marina said that he held no hatred for J.F.K. In fact he was upset when J.F.K.'s infant son died, and he regularly complimented J.F.K.
One of Oswald's last phone calls from the Dallas Police station was to a Naval Intelligence contact, but he was unable to speak to him.
(Senator Richard Russell, a member of the Warren Commission, said "We have not been told the truth about Oswald".)

So we have either the official story of a "mad loner" who shot the President for some unknown reason, or we have the Mafia and elements of the C.I.A. who certainly did have their own reasons.

Because, as happens in mafia assassinations, the patsy (and that is exactly what Oswald, himself, said he was) was eliminated, he couldn't be interrogated to find out exactly what his involvement actually was.

There is only circumstantial evidence(admittedly strong but still circumstantial) to show that it was Oswald that actually fired the shots which came from the Depository.

If you then look at the Jack Ruby connections, you will find that he was not just a night club owner but involved with some very shady characters. The perfect man, with his connections in the Dallas Police, to be called on by Mafia bosses as the hit man.
As regards the cover up. the Mafia are extremely good at keeping secrets of what they do and it wouldn't be hard to get help from their friends in the C.I.A.

If I were asked to put my money on those responsible, I would certainly place it on the Mafia

Santos Trafficante in an F.B.I. tape which was given to the Assassinations Committee was heard to tell his listener, "Now only two people are alive who know who killed Kennedy and they aren't talking.

So how many shooters do I think there were? My own opinion is at least two, and I dont think that Oswald was either of them. One from the rear of the car from the direction of the Book depository and one from the grassy knoll. (There were some 80 people who on the day in question believed that a shot was fired from there.)

As Ewood says, we will probably never know the real story of who killed J.F.K. But I think that the F.B.I and the C.I.A do not come outof this story with much credit as they both obfuscated over giving all the evidence they had to both the Warren Commission and the Assassinations committee. Maybe in fifty years time the real story (if there is one) will come.

(Incidentally, John, I still waiting for delivery of "Case Closed" which I have purchased by mail order, so after reading it I would be delighted to discuss it further with you.)

Seasons greetings to you and all in the Answerpudlian family, where-ever you are..

[This message was edited by Fourbrick on 12-18-03 at 12:11 PM.]

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Originally posted by Fourbrick:
Sorry J.G. I was unaware that L.B.J. was in the car with J.F.K. I thought it was John Connally.

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Oh my God! What in the **** was I thinking! You are, of course, 100% correct! I have egg all over my now red face! Jeeez do I feel stupid! Oh well! I won't try to recover because it would be pointless. That's too big of a mistake on my part for me to ever recover from! Besides, I doubt I will so easily be able to find Connaly's height!

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Originally posted by Fourbrick:
Regarding your proposal that the flash could be skull fragments after the shot, this falls down because the flash is before the explosion of the skull and not afterwards. If you view the film itself you will see, if it is slowed down that the flash is before and not after the skull disintegration, so it could hardly be that.

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I'll dig out my VHS copy and watch it again. I'll try to get a DVD version one of these days. The MPEGs, AVIs and other computer video versions on line are simply not clear enough.

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Originally posted by Fourbrick:
So we have both the Mafia and elements of the C.I.A. who were in the very least unfavourable to J.F.K.

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If you feel such powerful people in positions of power (or at least with access to people in power) killed Kennedy, then why did they do it in one of the most difficult manners possible?

Why did they do it in a manner where their shooters out in the open could have been so easily spotted or captured - or missed their shots?

Kennedy regularly had prostitutes delivered to him in the White House. Neither these women nor their possessions (purses, etc.) were ever searched. This caused the Secret Service (which has the duty of protecting U.S. Presidents) great dismay and concern. The mafia and the CIA (which would have known about such escapades) could have very easily had any one of these many prostitutes slip something to Kennedy or something else to incapacitate or kill him in a time-delayed manner.

Kennedy took countless drugs - mostly legal. Why not have someone replace just one of his pills with something to cause a heart attack or something else in the weak (medically speaking) president?

And besides the prostitutes and drugs, Kennedy had lots of other unsavory or unpopular facts about him that he wouldn't want made public. Wouldn't the mafia or CIA have been able to blackmail the incredibly easy-to-blackmail Kennedy? This was the 1960s after all! The public wouldn't be so forgiving of some of the facts about Kennedy back then. And wouldn't a blackmailed president under the thumbs of such people been more easily able to do the wishes of the mafia or CIA - and not been as dangerous as attempting to murder the president of the United States?

By killing Kennedy they would have known they would have brought the heat of the world down upon them. From what little I know about the mafia (and the CIA), I am under the impression they don't like such scrutiny.

And why did they allow their scapegoat/patsy Oswald to "escape" where he could walk around free after the shooting and eventually be captured? Why not have him dead already and then claim he was killed in a shootout while trying to take him into custody? Or have him already dead up in the TSBD where it appears he committed suicide with a note back at his place (or on him) saying it was he who did shot Kennedy and now he wanted to check out of this world as well? And if Oswald was as smart and savvy as you claim, wouldn't he have figured something was up and not played along with those setting him up?

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Originally posted by Fourbrick:
There is only circumstantial evidence(admittedly strong but still circumstantial) to show that it was Oswald that actually fired the shots which came from the Depository.

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Sorry, but there is much more than circumstantial evidence:

Eyewitnesses spotted a person matching Oswald's description in the same window of the TSBD only moments before the shooting.

Just as many earwitnesses heard shots from the TSBD window (although with echos and most people unfamiliar with gunshot sounds, even I am skeptical of most human earwitnesses in the echo-friendly enviroment of Dealy Plaza.) But 98% of earwitnesses sayd the shots came from just one location.

Although a much more credible earwitnesses was right below the sniper's nest and heard the shots, the action of the bolt and the shells hitting the floor.

Oseald's palm print was on the rifle.

Paraffin Tests performed on Oswald's hands after he was arrested tested positive for nitrates from gun powder. Although this could also have been after he shot a police officer - in full view of witnesses.

The bullet fragments and cartridges match both ballistically and via Neutron Activation Analysis of the lead to traces left in the barrel of Oswald's gun and within the bodies of the two men (no other lead fragments was found in either man). It is impossible to this day (and especially in 1960) to fake those results.

Acoustic evidence demonstrate 3 and only 3 shots coming from above and behind Kennedy.

These 3 shots match up perfectly with 3 "jiggles" on the Zapruder film (caused by the cameraman flinching upon hearing the loud reports.)

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Originally posted by Fourbrick:
(Incidentally, John, I still waiting for delivery of "Case Closed" which I have purchased by mail order, so after reading it I would be delighted to discuss it further with you.)

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Sounds good. I hope you enjoy it!

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Originally posted by Fourbrick:
Seasons greetings to you and all in the Answerpudlian family, where-ever you are..

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And to you too! Happy Holidays!

[This message was edited by JohnGalt on 12-18-03 at 01:59 PM.]

[This message was edited by JohnGalt on 12-18-03 at 02:02 PM.]



[This message was edited by Koz on 12-18-03 at 02:18 PM.]