TV producers who care only about ratings (and who are experts at making entertainment programs, not scientific documentaries) trod out the footage of the Kennedy assassination and try to further the conspiracy claims by asking leading questions, interviewing only pro-conspiracy theorists and selective editing. These people seem to think that the Grassy Knoll was big enough to hold shooters from Cuba, the Soviet Union, the Mafia, the CIA, the FBI, the Military Industrial Complex, the Skull & Bones, the Illumaniti, the Tri-Latteral Commission, the Council on Foreign Relations, Lyndon Johnson’s hired guns, 4 jealous husbands, 1 unsatisfied prostitute, Elvis, George Bush (I’m not kidding on that one!) and aliens from Beta Reticuli. And all these shooters decided to kill the President out in the open in front of witnesses instead of any place else where it would be easier for them to kill President Kennedy!
So here are some things you won’t see on these entertainment programs:
The Bullet The so-called “magic bullet” is clearly warped and bent. It is usually shown from an angle that hides that fact. Similar to looking at a banana with its curve directly in front of you. This gives the illusion that it is straight.
The bullet was a full metal jacketed bullet fired from a high powered rifle more than capable of going through several bones of different people.
The bullet did not “turn” in mid-air as some claim. The usual 2-D drawings of the two men do not take into account the 3 dimensions of the real world. Governor Connaly was seated off center to Kennedy and on a lower seat. Combine that with the bullet’s downward trajectory and being shot from off sides from the Texas School Book Depository and the bullet path matches. Computer models have precisely matched up the bullet’s path with the two men’s wounds directly back to the 6th floor window of the school book depository.
Besides the bullet fragments and cartridge being ballistically traced to Oswald’s gun, the rear of that bullet has lead extruding out of it. Dr. Vincent Gwen matched that lead through a process known as Neutron Activation Analysis, with the lead fragments and traces found in both Kennedy and Connaly. They all matched perfectly. There is no way to get the lead from those bullets into both of those men without each bullet going through them. No other lead from other bullet batches was found in either men.
Ease of Shot The shot was an easy one for a Sharpshooter like Oswald. At a 1992 “Second Chance Shooting” event held by Richard Davis, inventor of concealable soft body armor, a contest was held. From a mock up building, with the same model Mannlicher-Carcano, shooting at a moving limousine going the same speed, and at the same distance, and similar conditions as that day in Dallas. Not only did several shooters beat the 1.6 seconds between Oswald's shots (based on the minimum time required to manipulate the bolt action), but also all 3 rounds hit the moving target. Oswald only hit two out of his three shots. Every single shooter who did this was left-handed...just as Oswald was left handed when he fired his rifle.
Accoustic Evidence The sounds of 3 (and only 3) shots were recorded via a DPD Police motorcycle microphone on a dictabelt back at the police station. Knowing where the microphone was, measurements from the sound clearly shows that all three shots came from the rear and above the limo in the direction of the Texas School Book Depository.
Photographic EvidenceDrs. Robert McClelland, Paul Peters, Richard Dulany and “Pepper” Jenkins all examined 52 color and B&W photos from President Kennedy's autopsy. (These are the among the ones that will not be released to the public for nearly 50 years from now.) They all agreed that the pictures accurately reflect what they saw in the emergency room-a bullet wound from behind.
The “Head Snap” As for Kennedy’s head snap: There is a neurological/physiological process that occurs under such conditions as the trauma of being shot. (I’m not talking about the neurological reflex called the Thorburn position-that caused Kennedy to grab his throat. That was caused by his getting shot through the neck.) Its basic response is for the head and neck to suddenly and uncontrollably arch back and straighten up. Just recall whenever you have jumped into cold water: Your entire body instantly straightens up in a quick jerk. The same thing happened to Kennedy’s head.
Dr. John Lademer fired 6.5 mm rounds into human skulls filled with white paint to simulate blood and brain tissue. When shot from behind, the skulls flew backward-just like Kennedy’s. Add to that the fact that the limo was moving forward. Once unconscious, Kennedy’s head would naturally snap backwards as the limo continued forward.
The sad fact is, is that when Kennedy received the head shot his reflexes reacted just as they always do. In a split second his head and neck arched and straightened up in response to the gunshot trauma and he died (or at the very least lost consciousness). One way or another after that involuntary reflex action he no longer had control of the muscles that held his head up. Since the limo was constantly moving at about 11 MPH, then once those neck muscles were rendered useless, Newtonian Physics clearly says that the limp head sitting on a body in a forward moving Limo will fall backwards.
Gunshot wounds are not scripted to follow what we THINK should happen. And they especially don’t do what Hollywood shows!
The Backyard Photograph Cecil Kirk a real expert in investigative photography (not one of these self-professed photography "experts" working from 4th generation prints they found on the Internet) had the actual negatives to work with of the famous backyard photograph. Usual conspiracy buffs work with 3rd or 4th generation prints. The so-called “lines” that are supposedly on Oswald’s neck are simply not there on the negative. Also each camera’s internal mechanism can mark the film (similar to ballistics tests). The famous photo of the 6.5 rifle was, without a doubt, taken by his wife’s camera. Those photos are genuine.
The Zabruder Film There are three and only three “jiggles” on the famous Zabruder film. Physicist Louis Alverez discovered these. These are a result of the unconscious shaking of the hands and body occurring when each shot is fired. These jiggles correspond exactly to the two gun shot hits that are visible on the camera (Along with a person in the background stopping and looking up at the book depository at the exact moment of the first shot) The third “jiggle” occurs when the limo is behind the freeway sign and this missed shot matches exactly with where Gerald Posner says the first shot was fired and missed. This gives Oswald 8 ½ seconds to get off all three shots. And that makes it all that much easier of a shot. Not to mention the film shows the limo driver slowing down considerably as the driver turns to look at what is going on behind him. Thus he inadvertently gave Oswald an even easier shot for the final fatal head shot.
Want ironclad proof that Kennedy was shot from behind? Easy. Just look at the Zabruder film! Which way does the blood and brain matter fly out? Answer: The front! A bullet enters the body and then proceeds to push blood and tissue in the same direction it is moving until it comes out the other side! The bullet entered from behind and when what was left of that bullet came out, it forced a stream of blood and brain matter out with it in the same direction that bullet was traveling. Case closed.
As Massad Ayoob (a firearms expert) said, “...a nation could not except a giant being slain by a twisted dwarf, and felt that only a conspiracy of giant proportions could possibly fit the scope of the tragedy that had altered history’s course.”
quote:Originally posted by honilov: John, do you believe it was a conspiracy or do you believe it was the actions of one twisted dwarf?
Like most people my "default" belief at first was to believe in a conspiracy. But then I started reading everything I could about the case. Based on all the evidence, I eventually changed my mind. I now am in the minority in that I fully believe that Lee Harvey Oswald - acting alone and of his own accord - fired 3 shots from the TSBD and murdered President Kennedy. This does not mean that I agree with everything in the Warren Commission.
I know it's exciting and sexy to believe in the conspiracy. I know it sucks that one nut with a gun can alter a nation and history's course. And perhaps that's why more people believe in a conspiracy. It's a safer belief system for them. It's more comforting, somehow, that only a conspiracy can kill powerful people. But for me, the truth is far more comforting in the end, even if that truth shatters comforting beliefs.
Okay John, I'm not trying to hijack your thread to new heights, but why do you think Jack Ruby wanted Oswald dead. Frankly I believe it was a conspiracy, and Ruby was involved. Of course, we'll never know for sure because it's been too many rumors, already.
Posts: 6663 | Location: Land of Lincoln, USA | Registered: 07-04-02
I've already in many previous posts disagreed with your comments about the assassination of J.F.K. and I don't intend to resurrect my arguments dismissing your "facts".(If anybody is interested see The John Birch Society )
If the rest of our readers want to read a great book about it, read "The Kennedy Conspiracy" by Anthony Summers.
quote:Originally posted by honilov: Okay John, I'm not trying to hijack your thread to new heights,
By all means, please do! Open discussion by those who disagree is a good thing!
quote:Originally posted by honilov: but why do you think Jack Ruby wanted Oswald dead.
Why, when President Reagan was shot, did the Secret Service immediately protect Hinkley as well as the President?
Why, when Timothy McVeigh was being escorted between jail and court, did the police have him in a Kevlar bullet resistant vest?
The reason is because the authorities realize that the possibility of vigilantes coming forward to try and extract their own form of justice is very real.
Perhaps any of our members who were around when Kennedy was assassinated can properly explain the mood of the country in the days following Kennedy’s death. Jack Ruby, as weird as he was, shared that mood. Perhaps Ruby was angry that his President was shot. Perhaps Ruby felt he would be a hero if he shot the man who shot the President.
I’m sorry, but if conspirators wanted to do anything, they could have blackmailed the easily blackmailable President Kennedy. And if they really wanted to kill the President, they picked the worst possible way for powerful people to kill the President - out in the open. If they exist and are as powerful as people claim, they could have killed Kennedy in a thousand other ways without raising suspicion. They could have made it look like an accident or natural causes without the messy bullets that would later cause people to claim conspiracy. But Oswald didn’t have the money, power and connections that a conspiracy would require. So he did it in the one and only way he could: Out in public with his own gun. Ruby was the same.
The Times here today published an interview with Oleg Nechiporenko, a KGB man who saw Oswald at the Russian Embassy in Mexico City 2 months before the killing.
Oswald was shouting that he wanted to return to the USSR ( he had lived there and had a Russian wife, leaving only the year before) that he could not be delayed and that "This won't do! For me it's all going to end in tragedy!" The KGB thought him an obsessive weirdo; capable of violent, unpredictable action. When he lived in Minsk he was found to have made a bomb in his apartment; when his permit to leave the USSR came through he had dismantled it and thrown into the household rubbish.
When Ruby shot Oswald this KGB man was convinced there was some conspiracy. He changed his mind. Reviewing their extensive files on Oswald and what they knew of his personality, Nechiperenko and the KGB itself were satisfied there was none.
Because the CIA was being accused they helped that theory out along of mischief.
Once Oswald was shot, the KGB forged the letter dated 8th November '63, purporting to be handwritten by Oswald, to 'prove' conspiracy between Oswald and Howard Hunt ( CIA officer; later Watergate burglar). They put it in their files on Hunt. Then they leaked photocopies and set the story that the FBI tried to suppress the letter's being known.
As a general footnote: researchers here in the UK recently published their findings that we are all inclined to prefer conspiracy theories, even ones which seem really fanciful and would rather 'clutch at straws' regarding only that which might support them. The reason is precisely the one you mention, JohnGalt, in your quote. People find it easier and less worrying to think that great men are murdered, not by lone madmen, but by the actions of serious planners.It makes for a calmer , less anxious life.
Why? Because if the likes of the Kennedys can be killed by some madman in the street then so can we all ; even more so as they have bodyguards 24/7 and we don't !
quote:Originally posted by FredPuli: As a general footnote: researchers here in the UK recently published their findings that we are all inclined to prefer conspiracy theories, even ones which seem really fanciful and would rather 'clutch at straws' regarding only that which might support them. The reason is precisely the one you mention, JohnGalt, in your quote. People find it easier and less worrying to think that great men are murdered, not by lone madmen, but by the actions of serious planners.It makes for a calmer , less anxious life.
FredPuli,
I completely understand where the researchers you speak of are coming from, especially in regards to the assassination of President Kennedy. I believe that many conspiracy theories are based on just such a rational/belief system to make people feel better. But what about all of the other conspiracy theories? Think about some of them for a second:
The US government is secretly hiding advanced crashed alien spacecraft and won’t tell the public because we mere mortals would panic at the knowledge that we are not alone in the Universe - But somehow those in government can handle this knowledge just fine.
The US government (represented by either the CIA, George W. Bush or a super secret unnamed government agency) planned and orchestrated the September 11th attacks for their own nefarious purposes.
The US government (or sometimes it is claimed an oil company) is keeping "100 MPG" carburetors off the market. Now that cars no longer use carburetors, it is claimed to be something like a "water burning engine" that is kept from the public.
The US government faked the Apollo Moon landings.
The US government is doing all sorts of mind control experiments with everything from fluoridation of drinking water to the contrails from jets.
The government is controlled by one or more of any of the following real or imagined groups:
The Freemasons, The Bilderbergers, The Trilateral Commission, The Illuminati, The Council on Foreign Relations, The PI-40 Committee, The Jason Group, The Club of Rome, The Group, The Royal Institute of International Affairs, The Open Friendly Secret Society, The Rosicrucians, The Brotherhood of the Dragon (or Snake), The Russell Trust, The Black Families (of Europe), Skull & Bones, the Scroll & Key or The Knights of Malta
None of these conspiracy theories are based on the "less worry" factor that make people feel better. One of the things all of these conspiracy theories have in common is that it is (usually) the government doing them. And all of them are premised on the belief that the government is doing very bad things.
But they do have one other thing in common with all the Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories: They all presume the government to have super, omnipotent, almost god-like powers.
While I am glad people are suspicious of government, they give them way too much credit! I feel too many people view the government as a god. Only an entity with the powers of a god could actually pull off any (and especially all) of the above conspiracy theories! So the normally good skeptical suspicion of government takes on a whole new context once people assume the government has god-like powers. This is where I feel a true danger lies. Whenever people want something, instead of praying to a god, they now simply turn to government. And if it is an impossibility that the people want, no big deal! The government can do the impossible! Social Security is a pyramid scheme and mathematically guaranteed to collapse. But no worries! The government can perform mathematical impossibilities that not mortal (i.e private) company can do, and they will magically fix Social Security! Want free health care? It is impossible for anyone else, but, hey, the government can perform miracles! After all, they have advanced alien technology that tehy aren't telling us about!
So this is one of the reasons why I feel belief in most all conspiracy theories is dangerous. It sets up the populace to view themselves as nothing but childlike pawns to an omnipotent government that routinely performs miracles. And the near universal "evilness" and god-like powers present in most all conspiracy theories means we mere mortal subjects should never question the government, after all they can do things we can’t do. And they have proven they will kill presidents or fly planes into buildings and blame others for it - and make it all look exactly they way they wanted it to appear. We best just do whatever the government says, we aren't as smart as they are. After all anyone who could fake the Moon landings is out of our league to question.
Is the government evil? In some cases yes. But are they gods who have the power and capabilities given them in almost all conspiracy theories? No. They are just like us, no smarter, but due to the bureaucratic red-tape world they reside in, they are in many cases several steps (and sometimes years) behind the rest of us! They are not the gods that can pull off such conspiracy theories.
JohnGalt . The examples you cite are all forms of paranoia. This is a product of a disturbed mind and is a form of mental illness, though usually manifesting itself mildly and without anti-social behaviour.What is significant is that sufferers regard absolutely anything as evidence proving their convictions.If such a person gets the wrong change when buying a bus ticket or the mail is misdelivered that is because the bus company or the post office are in league with the Government against them or it is part of some other global conspiracy ( to rob or control the poor for example). They often use considerable ingenuity to do this particularly if the existing 'evidence' presented ,or the case, is criticised to any good effect.
The choice of Government or 'Them'is a convenient one as certainly being faceless and seemingly all powerful ( at least to the sufferer). They would in earlier times have blamed Satan or witchcraft or evil spirits as the explanation and cause of both irrational and real fears and real events. In earlier times we had no 'government' whose powers and representatives were not known to individuals. The explanation has the benefit of being easy and simple, though the individual may well justify it, like the witchfinders of old, with the most curious 'evidence' and sophistry.
A personal example:I dealt with an individual who was convinced that her neighbours had got the winnings check from the 'football pools' ( think 'national lottery') that belonged to her . There was of course no evidence she'd won anything but she'd got the idea that she'd won ( possibly on a reasonable mistake initially). So if these neighbours did not look at her that was proof of guilt, as was their avoiding her and much else innocent that they did and by extension anyone connected with them, however remotely. So she'd hated 'the Palmers' for two years. Therefore she burned their house down as a punishment or revenge for their theft of 'her winnings'
When I pointed out to her that the householders whose house she'd burned were named Smith, not Palmer, she thought for a bit and then said triumphantly " See !That's typical of those Palmers. They've changed their name, the dishonest b....s!"
This thinking may seem familiar
[This message was edited by FredPuli on 11-21-03 at 08:32 AM.]
quote:Originally posted by FredPuli: JohnGalt . The examples you cite are all forms of paranoia. This is a product of a disturbed mind and is a form of mental illness, though usually manifesting itself mildly and without anti-social behaviour.
I agree. But many of these conspiracy theories are very widely accepted by many people. Granted, some are only believed by the tiny "black helicopter" fringe. But with the ones involving Kennedy and UFOs, for example, these are beleived by the majority of Americans.
Here’s a quick follow up. A new doctor, who has never before spoken out, has now come forward.
Dr. Robert Grossman, now chairman of the Department of Neurosurgery at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, saw President Kennedy as he was brought into Parkland Memorial Hospital. Up until now, he hasn’t talked about what he saw. His statements echo what all the other doctors have always said:
"I believe the preponderance of evidence shows that Kennedy was shot from behind."
Following up on my comments about the US population believing in conspiracies:
Nearly 75% of Americans believe there were conspirators involved in the Kennedy assassination, and 68% believe there was an official cover up to keep the public from learning the truth.
A 1996 Gallup Poll asked, "In your opinion, does the United States government know more about UFOs than they are telling us?"
71% of Americans said, “Yes”
Keep in mind, any of the above numbers are more than the popular votes for George W. Bush and Al Gore combined! So while some conspiracy theories may just be in the fringes, these are examples of hugely mainstream conspiracy theories.
What's so wrong with 'Yes' to #2 ? I expect many respondents were loopy; and this may be pernickety; but some unidentified flying objects may well have a military origin.The government may not wish details of these to be known and so misdescribe or claim ignorance of them even if these are as innocent as radio sond balloons; it may be policy at some bases .
(I'm not thinking of an 'alien' landing in some American desert and being 'misdescribed'by the authorities as some cranks believed)
Here in the UK we've had a few examples of such policy; years later when secrecy is not needed the miltary admits what it was doing.The explanation is invariably dull. In wartime such misinformation or feigned ignorance was quite common; there is no reason why flying objects, even drones, should be exempt.
Nowadays, the Cold War over, the miltary and government authorities employ people to investigate and report openly to a concerned public. They were nearly beaten by the great Thetford UFO which as actually witnessed by the military, USAF officers and other reliable witnesses, over Suffolk, though.
This UFO proved to be a lighthouse beam shining through a forest and seen, in freak conditions of visibility, many miles inland
Shame ! And I'd stocked up with anti-Martian duct tape , too.
[This message was edited by FredPuli on 11-23-03 at 12:20 PM.]
I understand what you are saying and I agree. Yes, many UFO sightings are Earthly originated military craft of some sort. The famous Roswell case was a Top Secret Project Mogul designed to detect Soviet nuclear explosions. And I have no doubt that some of those 71% responding in the affirmative had just such a scenario in their mind. But let’s be realistic. I’m sure a larger percentage were thinking of, and assumed, the much more exciting and sexy alien hypothesis instead of the Air Force’s latest Stealth Bomber.
I believe the lighthouse incident you refer to was a case in 1980 near Brentwaters, England at the RAF Bentwaters and RAF Woodbridge airbases.
I've just finished watching a programme on our British TV (BBC2) examining the Kennedy assassination, using the kind of 3-D computer modelling that would be used by the investigating authorities in such a case today. It concluded that the "magic bullet" is entirely consistent with a high-velocity jacketed round following a simple straight path, once the relative positions of Kennedy and Connelly(sp?) are plotted properly (Connelly being some six inches lower than Kennedy and a bit more inboard on a jump seat). It further shows that the fatal head shot could not possibly have come from the grassy knoll.
In short, John, they concur entirely with your original post, that Oswald acted alone. Seems he was a permanent nobody who wanted to be somebody, whatever it took. Ruby, meanwhile, was a sandwich short of a picnic, worshipped Kennedy and brought what he saw as justice to the man who had destroyed his beloved President. Ruby believed he was a hero.
Perhaps we all like to believe in conspiracies rather than admit that two men with slightly tilted views of life and with guns could cause such widespread trauma. One thing I don't understand. If the Government (yours or ours) really is clever enough to carry out these dastardly schemes, why can't they solve the very real everyday problems?
Posts: 744 | Location: Surrey, England | Registered: 06-03-02
quote:Originally posted by Ewood27: One thing I don't understand. If the Government (yours or ours) really is clever enough to carry out these dastardly schemes, why can't they solve the very real everyday problems?
Good question. I've often wondered that myself. I remember a few years ago, in Life magazine, I believe it was, a series of still photos made from the Zapruder tape. One of them showed the fatal bullet to the head at the time of impact. Not to be overly graphic here, but the photo clearly showed that, from the direction the blood and brain matter sprayed, the bullet definitely came from behind. A very graphic picture, to be sure.
Posts: 3476 | Location: Colfax, WA--the home of the world's largest chain-saw sculpture!! | Registered: 06-03-02
quote:Originally posted by Ewood27: I've just finished watching a programme on our British TV (BBC2) examining the Kennedy assassination, using the kind of 3-D computer modelling that would be used by the investigating authorities in such a case today. It concluded that the "magic bullet" is entirely consistent with a high-velocity jacketed round following a simple straight path, once the relative positions of Kennedy and Connelly(sp?) are plotted properly (Connelly being some six inches lower than Kennedy and a bit more inboard on a jump seat). It further shows that the fatal head shot could not possibly have come from the grassy knoll.
I’ve seen similar computer projections from a PBS documentary a few years back.
quote:Originally posted by Ewood27: Ruby, meanwhile, was a sandwich short of a picnic...
ROTFLMAO! This is the best line I’ve ever heard! I’ll use this one! Sadly, in Ruby’s case, it was true.
quote:Originally posted by Ewood27: One thing I don't understand. If the Government (yours or ours) really is clever enough to carry out these dastardly schemes, why can't they solve the very real everyday problems?
Precisely. They can’t deliver the mail on time, so how could they pull off such a huge conspiracy and cover all their tracks and not have anyone talk after 40 years? And if they were so smart and clever, they wouldn’t have done it the way it was supposedly done! If the conspiracy is true, they chose the most complicated and dangerous method imaginable! They also exposed their shooters outside in broad daylight in front of hundreds of witnesses! I’ve even heard claims by some conspiracy theorists that the first gun found at the sniper’s nest was later changed. So we are to believe that this highly efficient, well-planned team of professional killers planted one rifle, then after it was spotted on the floor by a witness (but before the authorities confiscated it) , for some reason, the conspirators came in and changed it to another rifle! Likewise, some claim Oswald’s gun was a piece of junk known to explode. Well then why did the conspiracy choose this poor quality rifle? If they were so smart and clever, why not plant a high quality rifle that no one would question?
As for the so-called “magic bullet” this site asks four very good questions. Why did this intelligent and perfectly orchestrated conspiracy:
Plant it in a location where it could easily have been lost?
Plant a bullet that was only "slightly" damaged if its role was to have passed through at least the President? Why not shoot up some livestock and get a bullet a bit more mangled?
Plant it before it could have been known how many other bullets would be recovered? How could they have known that CE 399 would not be the "one bullet too many" that would blow the whole plot?
Plant the bullet so it was found before it was known how much lead was in JFK's neck/upper back? What if a big chunk of lead was found in JFK's neck or upper back, a chunk too big to have come from CE 399?
Some conspiracy theorists go so far as to say that Kennedy was shot from the front from the grassy knoll, and a team of surgeons were standing by to alter the president’s wounds so as to make them appear to look like they came from behind to implicate Oswald! Wouldn’t it have been easier and quicker to just shoot him from behind! Jeez!
But perhaps my favorite is conspiracy theorist Josiah Thompson. Thompson appeared (if I recall correctly) on the History Channel’s “Men Who Killed Kennedy. Thompson was talking about the fact that FBI weapons expert Robert Frazier got off 3 accurate shots with Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle in 4.5 seconds. Thompson claimed that it was impossible to cycle the mechanism of the rifle in less than 2.3 seconds and he demonstrates by cycling the bolt and pulling the trigger...in 1.83 seconds! You can view the clip of Thompson proving his theory wrong here,
Open discussion by those who disagree is a good thing! 
