quote:

Originally posted by newnickname:
You made me smile, Scotty. I wonder what actual event, in the case of Iraq, would be signified by 'the fat lady sings'.

The metaphor may be good, nonetheless.It does sound like Iraq in an unfortunate way. In opera 'the fat lady' (meaning the heroine) generally sings when she is either dying tragically or about to, after we have spent an awful lot of money to be there to witness that and have passed a lot longer in the theatre than we either wished or expected. Leaving can be a problem too ( what with finding a cab)

quote:

Originally posted by newnickname:
You made me smile, Scotty. I wonder what actual event, in the case of Iraq, would be signified by 'the fat lady sings'.

Maybe if Hillary Clinton would put on about 50-100 pounds, elect her as President and she could start tuning her voice for inauguration day...

The trouble with people with "cojones" is that they usually think with them instead of using their brains.

p.s. Merry Christmas to you all- no matter whom you support.

We first learned of Saddam's obsession to develop WMD's back in the 80s, and we responded by imposing an informal embargo on certain chemicals. From that time forward, Saddam made a major campaign to explore "dual use" chemicals. He repeatedly ordered his researchers to come up with ways to use industrial, farming and other chemicals in military development.

That would make the debate over Iraqi WMDs about 20 years old.

(I once found on line a live debate between an Iraqi nuclear scientist and Joe Wilson--yes, the "yellow cake" dude who hangs out with Valerie Plame. The debate took place in early March, 2003, just days before our invasion. Joe Wilson stated that it was a foregone conclusion that Saddam and his WMD programs were a threat to the world and that invasion was the only solution.)

"We first learned of Saddam's obsession to develop WMD's back in the 80s, and we responded by imposing an informal embargo on certain chemicals. From that time forward, Saddam made a major campaign to explore "dual use" chemicals. He repeatedly ordered his researchers to come up with ways to use industrial, farming and other chemicals in military development."

They must of done really well, since Reagan OKed the sale of chemicals that Saddam magically turned into a gas so that he could kill Kurds. But that was OK then, because he was "our" dictator, and Kurds were apparently disposable, by US standards. Reagan did nothing about the gassing of the Kurds, Bush I did nothing, Clinton did nothing. bush finally did something, but that reason was given to justify the invasion after the WMDs story (Remember the aluminum tubes? HA!) fell flat on its face. Sorry, but revisionist history doesn't play well with people who remember.

Actually, Saddam's military used the complexes around Mosul for the gassing, and these complexes were built and staffed by Germany from the 30s to the 90s.

(Nice try. Um, I could give you a fuller report on this one, but it would mean that you have to voluntarily give up your conspiratorial attitude that America is to blame for all the world's attrocities, since after all, they're "our" dictators.)

Also, the aluminum tubes were used for the only really successful nuclear program that Saddam attempted.

The reactor purchased from Russia had a low megawatt output and could purify only beyond 10%, perfect for nuclear power because the uranium is still stable.

The reactor purchased from France (output power above 300 megawatts) was bombed while still in Paris, and it suffered hairline fractures inside. The fractures were deemed moderate, Saddam took the thing anyway and used it to produce 22 kg of 90% uranium 235. This was the site Israel bombed (al Tuwaitha).

The uranium chloride gas filters attempted were not effective, though the program was funded for about 15 years.

Both the barrier testing and the electromagnetic testing (planted by the Israelis) failed. The barrier testing was done by Obeidi, the magnets by al Jaffar.

The centrifuge program required a centrifuge that spun above 30,000 RPM without vibrating, and they were finally assisted by a Swiss/German company in a successful test in the early 90s. The aluminum tubes passed the materials from one stage to the next. (The Germans also provided the uranium and the test equipment for developing the centrifuge process.)

A facility was built by MIMI and a three-stage system was set up and ready for use when UNSCOM began inspections. Saddam ordered the buildings with the centrifuges covered over with cement several meters thick to hide the equipment, and UNSCOM was never the wiser. (Although they did take soil samples outside and knew exactly what the building was for, according to their reports.)

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So tell me, what do you remember? Was it the crap fed to you by the media or was it the real information from the men who worked the programs?

Man, your history is lacking. What did Saddam do, gas the Kurds and then drop them all over in villages? I suppose you thought Chalabi was a good choice to help us in the invasion, too.

Not sure what you're talking about.

The gassing of the Kurds at Halabjah was an experiment. There were perhaps a hundred lab techs and scientists around the perimeter of the town working out of the Mosul area. The gasses were set up at various places around the village, and at a predetermiined time set off.

The job of the lab techs and scientists was to document the effectiveness of the gases.

Here's one account:

"Late on the afternoon of March 17, our unit was ordered to surround the town about a mile from the nearest house. It was mostly clear, cool day, with very few clouds. The late hour was chose to avoid moisture in the air, he said, which absorbs chemical agents and generally impedes their effectiveness. Around three PM we were told to don gas masks. The agents to be tested were nerve gasses--tabun, sarin and soman--plus mustard gas, which is easy to evaluate because it blisters the skin and lungs." (Saddam's Bombmaker, p. 201)

This was in 1988, and it came after the following events:

--Testing of anthrax injections on Shiite prisoners with German assistance in 1987

--Bombing near Balasan Valley near the Iraq/Turkey border, gas used isn't mentioned, 1987

--Typhoid spores dumped into water supplies near Sulaimanya, another Kurdish city, 1987

The results of these and earlier experiments were passed to Salmon Pak, but the labs in the north conducted them.

Well, shoot! I didn't know it was just an experiment. That makes it OK! No wonder Reagan and Bysh didn't do anything. The Kurds were just voluntary test subjects, right? Thanks for straightening me out.

I know it's just tongue in cheak, and perhaps just for fun, but your sense of humor is disgusting and infantile.

Reagan had nothing to do with it.

You are one of the primary reasons I love to embarrass liberals in public. You are heartless in your accusations and you resort to temper tantrums when you're wrong.

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But since you've complained about lack of sourcing, I have the time and I'm more than happy. The quote above was from Khidir Hamza's book, but you guys think you've already debunked him, so here's a different one, Mahdi Obeidi and "the Bomb in My Garden", the man in charge of Iraq's centrifuge program:

On German training of Iraqi technicians, page 104.

On German transfers of technologies, pages 88-92, 113, 227

On the procurement of other nuclear materials form Germany, page 107-109

On Germany being against the invasion of Iraq, page 191 and 198 (what a surprise--as if they had something to hide?)

Tell me which one you want and I'll put it here.

What about Georges Sada, or did liberals debunk him, too? He was Saddam's Vice Air Marshal.

Want to know what he has to say about American liberal denials of Saddam's weapons programs?

"Reagan had nothing to do with it."

Very little. He just OKed the sale of the chemicals, ones he was told could be easily used for WMDs. But Reagan thought he was going to use them on Iran, which made it OK in his book.

If my humor disgusts you, you'd really be disgusted if you knew (and understood) what we allowed Saddam to do (and what we allowed the Shah to do to his own people. The Hostage Crisis didn't happen without cause. Get someone to explain recent history to you.)

Why don't you explain, or are you going to wuss out on me again?

You really don't have any sources for all of this, do you? That's the real reason you don't have time.

I tutor students in History. Send me $50, and I'll teach it to you. Whether you learn it or not is another matter. But if knowledge isn't worth paying for, read any decent history book (college level) about the US and the Shah, and why he was overthrown.