This is a new one. I recently heard that Stalin was Jewish, which is news to me. The person who told me this is (in my opinion) a raving anti-semite, so I kind of doubt it. A search for the information came up with nothing. Do any of you know?

'...Stalin's authoritarian bent can't be attributed entirely to his seminary training. Fact is, he was expelled. The sickly son of an alcoholic bootmaker who died in a brawl, Stalin was initially sent to a church school in his native Georgia by his devout mother. At age 14 he'd done well enough to earn a scholarship to Tiflis Theological Seminary in what is now Tbilisi. If he'd played his cards right, he'd have wound up a priest in the Georgian Orthodox Church, where he could have spent his career terrorizing the altar boys. Not our Joe. He joined a secret society called Messameh Dassy that advocated Georgian independence from Russia (ironically, this goal wasn't achieved until the collapse of the totalitarian regime that Stalin helped create). Some members of the group were socialists who introduced Stalin to radical ideas. It's said he often snuck out to attend revolutionary meetings and organize local workers.

This all got to be a bit much for the seminary authorities, who gave Stalin the boot in 1899, when he was 19... www.straightdope.com

Although, of course, a raving anti-semite would claim of someone they didn't like, "There was some Jewish blood in him..." whatever the facts.

I have read a great deal of Russian history and have never seen anything resembling this. Stalin was a Georgian, and, while much could have changed in 100 years, Georgia's 2002 census shows no religious Jews (or at least less than 1%):

Orthodox Christian 83.9%, Armenian-Gregorian 3.9%, Catholic 0.8%, Muslim 9.9%, other 0.8%, none 0.7%

Further, for whatever it is worth, Stalin looked like every other old Georgian I have ever seen. (Yes, I have seen a few.)

Stalin's mother Ekaterina's only association with Jews seems to have been that she did laundry and housekeeping and one of the people she did housekeeping for was David Papisnedov, a local Jew .

Since 1) She got enough money from these arduous labours to send him to a church school when he was 8

2) From there, when he was 14, he got a scholarship to Tiflis Theological Seminary where students studied for the priesthood. He seems to have had no such intention, seeing the place principally as a means to a good education

3) His mother intended him to become a priest, a wish which she continued to express even after he became President

We may conclude that she herself was not a Jew and so that her young 'Soso', as he was called, was not a Jew nor raised as one. How many Jewish mothers aim their boys at a priesthood ?

Incidentally Mr Papisnedov, his mother's old employer, visited the Kremlin ,decades later, to see how young Soso was getting on. To the surprise of colleagues Stalin not only received him but chatted happily with the elderly man in public places.

Stalin's father was a serf, then a cobbler who went bankrupt, always a violent man who would beat the boy and his mother, and a drunk. Small wonder that Stalin should remember that kindly Jewish man with affection.

Thanks, Fred. I had forgotten that Stalin studied at a seminary. Was it he or Gorky that got into trouble for inciting the students to howl at a teacher?

According to my Russian wife, Stalin was jewish. She said quite simply, "Joseph is not a Russian name". Also, one of Stalin's sons was named Yakov, which is the the proper pronounciation of the name Jacob, who was the father of the jews.

She also told me that most so-called Russian immigrants in the U.S. are actually jewish Russians.

Stalin may have had one or more Jewish ancestors, but I have never seen any real proof of any. (Many Christians have some Jewish ancestors.) Neither Jacob or Joseph are soley Jewish names. I know several Armenians named Jacob (Hagop in Armenian). Stalin wasn't a Russian, as stated above; he was Georgian. Further, his birth was registered in a Georgian Orthodox church.

Birth register of the Uspensky church in Gori fixed the day of Stalin's birth on Dec. 6 [18], 1878, though he maintained himself that he was born on Dec. 9 [21], 1879. - http://state.rin.ru/cgi-bin/persona_e.pl?id=4140&id_subcat=6&r=8


Below from Wikipedia -

Joseph Stalin was born Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili in Gori, Georgia, Russian Empire to Vissarion Dzhugashvili and Ekaterina Geladze.

His mother was born a serf. The other three Dzhugashvili children died young; "Soso" (the Georgian pet name for Joseph), was effectively the only child. Stalin's father Vissarion was a cobbler, who opened his own shop, but quickly went bankrupt, forcing him to work in a shoe factory in Tiflis.

Rarely seeing his family and drinking heavily, Vissarion often beat his wife and small son. One of Stalin's friends from childhood wrote, "Those undeserved and fearful beatings made the boy as hard and heartless as his father." The same friend also wrote that he never saw him cry.

Another of his childhood friends, Iosif Iremashvili, felt that the beatings by Stalin's father gave him the hatred of authority. He also said that anyone with power over others reminded Stalin of his father's cruelty. Stalin had broken his arm several times over his life. There have been reports of Stalin having one arm shorter than the other.

One of the people for whom Ekaterina did laundry and house-cleaning was a Gori Jew, David Papismedov. Papismedov gave Joseph, who would help out his mother, money and books to read, and encouraged him. Decades later, Papismedov came to the Kremlin to learn what had become of little "Soso". Stalin surprised his colleagues by not only receiving the elderly man, but happily chatting with him in public places.

In 1888, Stalin's father left to live in Tiflis, leaving the family without support. Rumors said he died in a drunken bar fight; however, others said they had seen him in Georgia as late as 1931. At the age of eight, "Soso" began his education at the Gori Church School.

When attending school in Gori, "Soso" was among a very diverse group of students. Joseph and most of his classmates were Georgian and spoke mostly Georgian. However, at school they were forced to use Russian. Even when speaking in Russian, their Russian teachers mocked Joseph and his classmates because of their Georgian accents. His peers were mostly the sons of affluent priests, officials, and merchants.

He graduated first in his class and at the age of 14 he was awarded a scholarship to the Seminary of Tiflis (Tbilisi, Georgia). Although his mother wanted him to be a priest (even after he had become leader of the Soviet Union), he attended seminary not because of any religious vocation, but because of the lack of locally available university education, in addition to the small stipend from the scholarship Stalin was paid for singing in the choir.
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In 327, Christianity was declared the official state religion in the ancient Georgian Kingdom of Iberia, making Georgia the second oldest[7][8][9] country after Armenia (301) to declare Christianity as her official state religion.
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On the official HOLY SYNOD OF THE GEORGIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH site, I found this:

MEMBERS OF THE HOLY SYNOD
Ioseb, Archbishop of Shemokmedi;

Stalin's birth name was Ioseb or Iosep.
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Back to Wikipedia -

Yakov Petrovich Polonsky (Russian: Яков Петрович Полонский, 18 December 1819 — 30 October 1898) was a leading Pushkinist poet who tried to uphold the waning traditions of Russian Romantic poetry during the heyday of realistic prose.

Of noble birth, Polonsky attended the Moscow University, where he befriended Apollon Grigoryev and Afanasy Fet.

I seriously doubt if there were any Jews in Russia that were "of noble birth" in the first part of the 19th Century.

Soviet physicist Yakov Borisovich Zel'dovich (1914 – 1987) was awarded the following:

# three times Hero of Socialist Labor (1949, 1953, 1957)
# USSR State Prize (1943, 1949, 1951, 1953)
# Lenin Prize (1957)
# three Orders of Lenin (1949, 1962, 1974)
# two Orders of the Red Banner (1945,1964)

It is unlikely that someone with Jewish ancestry would have been so honored by the Soviet Union.

Count Joseph Vladimirovich Romeyko-Gourko was a Russian Field Marshal prominent during the Russo-Turkish War, 1877-78. It is highly unlikely that someone with Jewish ancestry would have been made a count, or given that position.

Ioseb Grishashvili and Ioseb Gudiashvili are Georgian poets.

There is nothing unusual about a Georgian woman, who wants her son to be a priest, naming him Joseph, Josef, Ioseb, or Iosep.

Does his birth name of Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili provide any clues? One source, which I am not sure is totally objective, indicates that the surname is translated as "son of a Jew" (much like the anglicized name Jewison).

Russian Orthodox Christian Menaion Calendar

October 21 (Civil Date: November 6) - Saint Vissarion (Bessarion)

The Cathedral of Saint Vissarion of Smolyan (Bulgarian: катедрален храм „Свети Висарион Смолянски“) is an Eastern Orthodox church in Smolyan, Bulgaria, inaugurated on 2 July 2006.

Image here. Note cross.

It seems quite far fetched that if he was Jewish by ancestory that this information wouldn't be revealed by one of the many well researched biographies. The absence of the information implies to me that it isn't based on anything except somebody thinking he might be Jewish.

I've had people make similar assertions about my name. I have no reason to think they are correct and no reason to care either way.

If he were not anything other than Slavic, I don't think there would even be any question or doubt; yet more than a half a century later, here we are talking, not about Nikita's (Khrushchev) or Lenin's, but about Joseph's ancestry. If a Russian woman is named Rachel and not Svetlana, there would be some question about her ancestry in my mind. If a german man is named Yakov and not Gunter there would be some question about his ancestry in my mind.

Besides that, I don't think a Slav would be as cruel to his own nation as Stalin was to the Russian peoples. But nowadays all one need do is DNA analysis on a remains to find out about the ancestry.

It is very simple to lie about one's ancestry so him being a part of the Orthodox Church is no great thing. Stalin only used the church when it suited his purposes, particularly as a part of a rallying cry when hitler invaded Russian.

As far as the average american's perception of what Russian is what, I'd even venture to say that if any of you know any Russian immigrants, chances are they are jewish (chances are their hair is dark or black), and chances are you didn't know that they were jewish. Being jewish is not just a religion, it is also an ethnicity, and many Russian jews don't openly demonstrate their jewishness. Regarding the immigration ratio, it is much harder for a Slavic Russian to immigrate to this country than a jewish Russian. I have known many Russian immigrants and most of them are jewish. The threat of persecution allows them to get into this country easier (a bone of contention with my wife and other Slavic Russians).

As far as Russian versus jewish names, there is a distinct difference. For one thing, many so-called jewish names can also be found among arabs because the the two have a common ancestry: e.g. joseph and yusef. Just like the two groups have certain words in common like shalom and salaam, both of which mean peace. My point is that there is a distinct difference in jewish and Slavic names in general. Jews also tend to have names that describe some element of the earth or something physical or strong: Rachel Goldstein, Phil Silver, Dora Gold, Jacob Grossman (grossman means big man), etc. The word stalin means steel in the Slavic tongue.

Being jewish myself, I don't speak as an anti-semite.

None of the Russian immigrants I know are Jewish, including those in my family. Maybe I should ask at St. Mikhail's Russian Orthodox Church to see if any are there.

By the way, his birth name was not Stalin, but one very easily identified as Georgian. (Yes, as stated above, I know some Georgians.)

I used to know a man whose last name was Kim, a Russian from eastern Siberia. I guess his black hair means he is probably Jewish.

Here is another apparent Russian Jew. Note the black hair.



Nellie Kim was born on July 29, 1957 in Shurab, Tajik SSR, the daughter of a Soviet Korean father Vladimir Kim, who worked in the Chimkent slate factory, and a Tatar-Russian mother Alfia.

Regarding the point about Stalin being jewish, I would be more inclined to believe my wife (who happens to be slavic Russian, and comes from an educated family---her grandmother was a school principal).

As far as the percentage of russian jews, I being jewish know for a fact that jewish immigrants to this country get special treatment, and I only took it for granted until I saw how hard the U.S. made it for my wife to come here.

That's fair enough, John. But you shouldn't be surprised when the rest of the world, who doesn't know your wife from Adam, is not inclined to believe her above all other, more well-known and respected, historians.

quote:

I being jewish know for a fact that jewish immigrants to this country get special treatment

Russian Jews were considered refugees, and thus were put on the fast track. The Ashkenazim in New York City weren't happy about all the perqs they got either. There's a reason the Coney Island area is now called Little Odessa.

John said:

quote:

According to my Russian wife, Stalin was jewish. She said quite simply, "Joseph is not a Russian name". Also, one of Stalin's sons was named Yakov, which is the the proper pronounciation of the name Jacob, who was the father of the jews.

That is just awful crap. 'Joseph Stalin' were not his given names. He adopted "Stalin" to conceal his real identity when he became politically active, and also, I suppose, because he liked the idea that he was the 'man of steel'.

"Joseph" (or any of its ethnic variants, as others have mentioned above) is a name very commonly given to Christians, because -- Joseph was Jesus' adoptive father. You might just as well say all women named Mary, Maria, Marie, and any other westernized versions, are Jewish because Miriam was Jewish. Joseph and Mary are the parents known as the 'holy family', and they are the models for good Christian parents everywhere.

My very Christian great-grandson is named Jacob.

As to whther Stalin may have had Jewish blood, that could be determined by mitochondrial DNA, if anyone cares. But remember: because of the hideous oppression of Jews for a thousand years in Eastern Europe, many Jews converted to Christianity to save their lives during that time. So you might want to reconsider using Stalin as a slur against Jews.

Has your wife had her mitochondrial dna tested?

Frankly I should have looked at the dates of those the original posts before I posted. They are more than a year old. I hate I even resuscitated this discussion.

As far as I can tell besides getting personal,

"...But you shouldn't be surprised when the rest of the world, who doesn't know your wife from Adam, is not inclined to believe her above all other, more well-known and respected, historians."

(the preceding quote frankly smacks of hyperbole; I never implied she should be "believed above all other", nor have I gotten personal with anybody as several of you have)

none of you have quoted any 'more well-known and respected historians' in refuting. I have merely quoted a Russian immigrant who was born and raised there.

There is no way I am going to participate any further in energizing of this particular segment of the board. I just stumbled on to this board in doing some research and felt I would just offer an opinion. Whether or not you agree, it should not be a reason for personal insults.

It amazes me how people have time to make thousands of posts that essentially add up to a bunch of personal comments not open minded discussion. I wish you all farewell and hope your pre-occupation continues keep you pre-occupied.

quote:

Originally posted by john3000:
Frankly I should have looked at the dates of those the original posts before I posted. They are more than a year old. I hate I even resuscitated this discussion.

As far as I can tell besides getting personal,

"...But you shouldn't be surprised when the rest of the world, who doesn't know your wife from Adam, is not inclined to believe her above all other, more well-known and respected, historians."

(the preceding quote frankly smacks of hyperbole; I never implied she should be "believed above all other", nor have I gotten personal with anybody as several of you have)

John- I meant no insult, but I see how it appears that I did. I'm sorry for the language I chose and sorry that I upset you.

John, people revive threads all the time here. If the subject matter is one that people would enjoy discussing, I see no reason to stop it. We don't always agree with another's viewpoints, but, for the most part, no one intends to insult. However, since many of us are old friends, we sometimes 'hit' each other harder than we should (I am especially guilty of this.) and when we speak to a newcomer, it may sound much different than we intend. (And, being human, sometimes we just simply make mistakes.) Sarai's apology is genuine, as is mine. I am truly sorry that you felt that we got too personal, and I hope you stay around to see the true character of AnswerPool.

I was not aware that "crap" could get by the filter. Interesting.

And did Stalin actually go by Joseph in the Soviet Union or was that an Americanization of his name?