Just read this article---seems that the latest findings show that sexual identity is hard-wired into genes which puts to rest the theory that homosexuality is a matter of choice if true.
10-26-03, 09:04 PM coldfuse I also read the article. The "team has identified 54 genes in mice that may explain why male and female brains look and function differently."
The article addresses cases where physicians make sex assignment decisions when babies are born with ambiguous genitalia. There are several dangerous leaps between this and your conclusion.
10-26-03, 09:30 PM Kelleygirl This isn't my conclusion--I just thought that it was an interesting article--although I have always been from the school of thought that some people are born homosexual just like some people are born with blue eyes.
As this article says: "Our findings may help answer an important question -- why do we feel male or female?" Dr. Eric Vilain, a genetics professor at the University of California, Los Angeles School of Medicine, said in a statement. "Sexual identity is rooted in every person's biology before birth and springs from a variation in our individual genome."
10-27-03, 06:12 PM Kalena I always thought that homosexuality was something you were born with and was not a choice. That is what i was always taught anyway.
10-27-03, 07:13 PM frankvan
quote:Originally posted by honilov: I read the article, Kelleygirl, but no comment, due to my refrainment from discussing homosexuality again.
Hmmm. This page intentionally left blank. Wink
10-27-03, 07:22 PM frankvan The way I interpret the findings concerning ambiguous genitalia and Doctors assigning gender, is that the tragic errors that have resulted in those instances can be avoided in the future by genetic testing of such newborns. Personally, I have always questioned why if homosexuality were a question of choice, anyone would choose it. It's not as if gays received widespread acceptance - one might as well choose to be a victim of discrimination.
10-27-03, 08:32 PM MommyTimesTwo
quote:Originally posted by frankvan: Personally, I have always questioned why if homosexuality were a question of choice, anyone would choose it. It's not as if gays received widespread acceptance - one might as well choose to be a victim of discrimination.
That's always been my opinion, but you said it much better than I could. Thank you Frank.
10-27-03, 09:44 PM Kelleygirl A gay friend of mine said exactly that one night, Frank---that if he had a choice --why would he choose this one? Much easier to live in the main stream---to swim with the current.
10-27-03, 10:05 PM MommyTimesTwo I don't understand how people can doubt its hard-wired. I didn't make a choice to like boys. I just do. I couldn't NOT like boys if I tried. So how can people think that its a choice for gays? I just don't get it.
10-27-03, 10:58 PM stampeding turtles "Gay by Nature, but Fabulous by Choice" I saw this and thought it was a clever way to turn the whole thing on its head.
A little bit of this thinking is out of date for many gays. The point that "Why would anyone choose to be so miserable?" is a reflection of that attitude that can't imagine a happy homosexual. Well there are many that wouldn't want to be anything else today. Especially if they live in areas of the country where things are a little more progressive and there is a gay culture and infrastructure present for some time now. In these areas being gay is no big deal to anybody(straight or gay) and people don't judge you just by your sexual orientation, like they do in other areas.
For many people its a non-issue. The only people that still treat them like second -class citizens and outright disriminate against them out here, I have noticed, are usually religious people like the Fundamentalist Christians and the Mormoms who organized and spent a lot of money in politics to make sure the Nevada Constitution would be unfair to a certain number of its citizens in a recent election concerning marriage. It was the tyranny of the religious majority ...again. So much for seperation of Church and State again.
Why should it matter if it is a choice or not in a free society? That should be beside the point. Especially since as Americans we are suckled on the milk of liberty from day one.
10-27-03, 11:49 PM MommyTimesTwo I say a BIG ROUND OF APPLAUSE for Stampeding Turtles for pointing out the fallacy of this entire conversation.
Thank you ST--you've really opened my eyes.
10-28-03, 03:12 PM frankvan I agree with MommyX2 in that I started liking girls, preferring them to boys, in the 6th grade. If it was a choice it was a fortunate one which has lasted for seventy years. But I don't think we should assume that the struggle for equal rights is over by any means, despite the encouraging report from Reno, Nevada. Gays have a right to be as happy as heteros, in any part of the country; not just in the closet. Smile
10-29-03, 01:19 AM Kalena Although i cannot remember where i saw it, i read an article about how there's homosexuality in the animal kingdom as well. 10-31-03, 06:56 AM Kendor Physical attraction to a member of the same sex very well may not be a choice. However, acting on that temptation clearly is; just like ever other vice we humans must deal with.
10-31-03, 12:11 PM frankvan Physical attraction to a member of the opposite sex very well may not be a choice. However acting on that temptation clearly is ??? just like every other vice ? we humans must deal with.??? Confused
10-31-03, 12:21 PM MommyTimesTwo Well you guys are right, of course.
But isn't sexual desire a physiological drive? Like hunger or having to pee?
I mean, if I'm hungry and I drink a glass of water, I'm not really going to be less hungry.
And in a sort-of-not-really way, wouldn't that be like a gay person having a relationship with someone of the opposite sex?
10-31-03, 12:26 PM aminator2002 oh boy... here we go again. Roll Eyes
11-06-03, 01:37 PM Elexina
quote:Originally posted by Kalena: I always thought that homosexuality was something you were born with and was not a choice. That is what i was always taught anyway.
That is what I've learned, from knowing gay people. Smile And Frank, as usual, you've read my mind. And yes, homosexuals can certainly be happy and healthy and loved like anyone else. The trouble they endure comes from heteros. I just don't know if I would be strong enough to knowingly take on such a hated lifestyle. This is becoming more of an issue in our current political environment, not less of one.
Kalena, yes, I have read articles and seen documentaries that attest to that. My favorite was a couple of male penguins who were always together, loving each other. They were given a baby to raise and were so sweet to it. It was adorable.
Kendor, certainly acting on a temptation is a choice. But I am glad I acted on mine or I wouldn't be the happily married woman I am today. Or is your point that it's okay to act on temptations if you're straight, but not if you're gay?
11-06-03, 11:18 PM stampeding turtles Don't act on it? That's a denial of a very basic part of that person, not a vice. To not act on it would be the ultimate in denial and hypocrisy. It could never lead to a well-adjusted person. It is not honest and can't be a virtue. That's why 'don't ask, don't tell' and converting gays to make them straight is a dishonest and misguided denial of reality and always will be. It's forcing a left handed person to write with the right hand because only right hand is correct and on and on......
I have a friend right now who is going through a terrible ordeal with his parents about being gay. They are fundamentalists Christians and it is terrible the things they are saying. It doesn't sound like love to me. And I had always been told by Christians that 'God is Love'. But I don't think it's them talking. I think it is the cult they belong to that's talking. I told him that if they really love him, they will want what is in his best interest. Accepting him for who he really is as a person, not what they want him to be. It's about all the good values they instilled in him to be 'true to himself' and 'know thyself' etc. Maybe they are just in denial and can't accept it. Accepting him would upset their very fragile and simple world view. In that world view, people simply are not gay. It's an old social taboo that perhaps made sense when humans were few in numbers long ago, but now this social taboo doesn't make as much sense, and it might be time to adapt to reality instead. That reality is that there are and have always been many people who are gay. Acceptance of reality is the key to better mental health.
I also told him that being gay really isn't a big deal. There are much bigger issues in today's world, like terrorism, poverty, hunger, and disease, rampant materialism, corporate misconduct and 'cooking the books' on a large scale. It has just been blown out of proper proportion. People love to blow things out of proportion. Maybe to redirect attention away from more pressing matters? A sort of 'Bread and Circus' to the masses.
Since nobody can really understand something that they are not, I told him that homophobia is a fact of life, and he is going to have to learn to deal with it and move on and not be bothered by all the people that hate him (although they don't know him for the good person he really is.) They have prejudged him, and, if there is a heaven, I'm certain that can't be a criterion for admission. In fact, if there is a heaven and it is full of those kind of people, he wouldn't want to be with that crowd anyway. That would be another gay hell, with rampant heterosexuality present. Can you imagine all the plain Jane, vanilla attitudes, screaming brats, mean and dumb bullies beating you up, meatloaf and potato everynight for dinner, ugly tacky furniture, and colors that don't match, all with no accessories? Wait a minute ...thats where I live... get me out of here!Wink
So if they tell him it's OK but not to 'act' on his desires, I told him it would OK to be fundamentalist and ultraconservative as long as they don't 'act' on their beliefs and try to enforce their cruel and ignorant piety on people who don't share their particular metaphysical or political hang ups, or try to recruit him to their beliefs. This is America, after all, and not the Taliban.
A gay joke I heard Garrison Keillor say on Praire Home Companion: One woman to another, "Why can't you find caring, decent, sensitive, goodlooking men anymore? Because they already have boyfriends."
Or, "Thank goodness Michelangelo was gay. If a straight man had painted the Sistine Chapel, it wouldn't have taken four years, working painstakingly on his back. It would be be done in a week.... painted white.. with a roller." Big Grin
11-08-03, 10:12 AM EBknowsBUBBA Genetic not choice
quote:Originally posted by Kendor: Physical attraction to a member of the same sex very well may not be a choice. However, _acting_ on that temptation clearly is; just like ever other vice we humans must deal with.
This comment touches on something many people overlook. I will branch it off on another avenue.
The subject of lust and morality. I am not going to discuss so much about the morality or immorality of being gay. The Bible already shows what God thinks of homosexuality. He doesn't like it. But when we think of straight people acting on their desires, when it is outside of the context God had intended, I see it as no different from a Gay person acting on his or her sexual impulses.
So isn't sexual immorality the same regardless of what orientation the people involved may be?
11-08-03, 01:49 PM DvdGStwrt
quote:Originally posted by stampeding turtles:
I have a friend right now who is going through a terrible ordeal with his parents about being gay. They are fundamentalists Christians and it is terrible the things they are saying. It doesn't sound like love to me. And I had always been told by Christians that 'God is Love'. Big Grin
Here are a few Gay Christian Sites which may be of help to your freind since this is coming down to that issue:
