What do you think about it? Make it legal? Don't? Who cares?
If you are for it, why? If against, why?
Do you think the current legislation against homosexual marriage can stand up to scrutiny? It's based on Christian beliefs.
TYIA *************************************************************8 09-05-03, 08:38 PM honilov Well, after getting the 3rd degree on this subject before, I gotta say who cares. If it's their fantasy to get married, good luck to gay marriages.
09-06-03, 08:48 AM methos You may be interested in these related posts:
09-06-03, 01:35 PM Fritzzs I personallu would rather see it be,and called ,a "LEGALIZED UNION" .. Using that term, it would take care of infriging on the "rights" of married couples(straight).
[This message was edited by donrent on 09-06-03 at 01:55 PM.]
09-06-03, 04:52 PM MrsS As a legal reference,(as opposed to common social usage) I have no problem with that...assuming that a "legalized union" carries the same legal rights and obligations currently encompassed by the legal term "marriage".
09-06-03, 05:14 PM Scotty No!! Homosexual "marriages" should not be legalized. Marriage is between a man and a woman,not between two men or two women.
09-06-03, 05:34 PM MkStfnz "Homosexual marriage" is an oxymoron.
Haven't we exhausted the heck out of this debate already?
09-06-03, 06:12 PM MrsS "Marriage" is several different things....a religious rite, a social institution and a legal contract....the legal contract must be available to any two, otherwise unrelated persons who, acting in good faith, wish to avail themselves of the contract. And evidently, we have not exhausted the topic... since we all seem quite willing to restate our positions.
09-06-03, 07:22 PM MommyTimesTwo I didn't realize you'd already talked about this--I scrolled but didn't see it.
IMHO, marriage is a union: legal, emotional, and spiritual. I do not see why this has to be limited to a man and a woman, only. If our country is supposed to separate religion from government, than how can we rely on the standard Christian definition of marriage to make our laws for it?
09-06-03, 09:55 PM billmasters
quote:Originally posted by MommyTimesTwo: I didn't realize you'd already talked about this--I scrolled but didn't see it.
Don't worry about that, a new post will just bring an interesting discussion topic back to the top with fresh new opinions.
My opinion is make it legal. If gay people want to get married let them, it doesn't affect or interfere with me or my family's lives in any way.
why would anyone, of any sex want to get married in the first place Wink
09-06-03, 10:29 PM EBknowsBUBBA
quote:Originally posted by billmasters: .
why would anyone, of any sex want to get married in the first place Wink
You do have a point! Big Grin
09-07-03, 10:53 AM MommyTimesTwo LOL! I can think of three good reasons!
09-07-03, 12:03 PM Fritzzs
quote:Originally posted by Scotty: No!! Homosexual "marriages" should not be legalized. Marriage is between a man and a woman,not between two men or two women.
The term marriage was not used, and should not be used... People who enter a legal partnership as in business is also a "Legalized Union".. The difference between 2 men (or women) would be more personal in wording,althought there would , and should be , wording for the sharing of property and other financial situations... I feel the term "Marriage" should be left for the hetro side of marriage...Also, if married by a religious ceremony, does not mean it is a legal one...To be legal, one must have a government type license... So, lets drop the term "marraige" as some people feel threaten by it... Why, I never could understand...But then again, some are afraid of the dark...
09-07-03, 12:50 PM notinmyname
why would anyone, of any sex want to get married in the first place Wink
I have been happier during this decade, while married to the right person, than any other. Love is good, being a family is good, having extended family is (with those few execptions) good. Casual relationships (even living together) do not have the feeling of being bonded that a legal, socially sanctioned bond does. There is some reason there are so many sappy love songs.
Margeret Mead asked a Samoan (Coming of Age in Samoa, or Blackberry Winter) why they would not marry their brother. The essence of the reply was that you if you marry a relative you do not expand the network of people you can rely on in a pinch.
I am a social being, and function best in a family. I suspect that this is true of our species, including my sister-in-law and her partner who the family calls Uncle 'Janie.' I would be happy to attend their wedding. But we are more family with my brother's wife, because they are married.
Currently, they cannot offer each other normal social benefits. When 'Janie' was injured my sister-in-law could not sign papers, legally visit as a relative, or provide health insurance.
09-07-03, 06:03 PM Scotty
quote:Originally posted by donrent:
quote:Originally posted by Scotty: No!! Homosexual "marriages" should not be legalized. Marriage is between a man and a woman,not between two men or two women.
The term marriage was not used, and should not be used... People who enter a legal partnership as in business is also a "Legalized Union".. The difference between 2 men (or women) would be more personal in wording,althought there would , and should be , wording for the sharing of property and other financial situations... I feel the term "Marriage" should be left for the hetro side of marriage...Also, if married by a religious ceremony, does not mean it is a legal one...To be legal, one must have a government type license... So, lets drop the term "marraige" as some people feel threaten by it... Why, I never could understand...But then again, some are afraid of the dark...
I think that you should look at the topic again. It is listed as Homosexual marriages.
09-08-03, 01:18 AM honilov Notinmyname, I'm sorry about Uncle Janie's accident, but your sister-in-law knew the ropes beforehand, so this shouldn't have been a shock to her.
If I jump out in front of a moving car, I know firsthand that I'm gonna get hit, so I can't complain about the consequences. Just an example of how we make choices in our life. Some good, and some bad. Smile
09-08-03, 10:16 AM frankvan
quote:Originally posted by honilov: Notinmyname, I'm sorry about Uncle Janie's accident, but your sister-in-law knew the ropes beforehand, so this shouldn't have been a shock to her.
If I jump out in front of a moving car, I know firsthand that I'm gonna get hit, so I can't complain about the consequences. Just an example of how we make choices in our life. Some good, and some bad. Smile
honilov, what the hell are you talking about??? Confused
09-08-03, 10:42 AM notinmyname honilov,
What choice are you talking about? A choice to have an accident? or choosing to fall in love?
I didn't have much choice about falling in love, just good luck! an accident is not of one's choosing, or it would not be an accident.
Janie and I are pretty good friends, and this was a very difficult time for them. My sister-in-law has the same feelings towards her spouse that I do toward mine. Imagine you could not help your wife or husband when they fell ill, and had to illicitly visit them in the ICU.
Call it marriage or not, I don't care.
09-08-03, 11:50 AM aminator2002 I suspect this is a case of someone not imagining themselves in the other person's place...
Did you make a choice to fall in love with your husband honilov?
How would you feel if there were still restrictions of a racial nature on your marriage? (Example - laws against interracial marriage) Would it be okay if those restrictions were understood beforehand? I mean you would know the consequences of your actions so it would be your choice when you fell in love.... right? Why choose to fall in love with someone who is white if you are black? I mean I know that when I jump in front of a car that I'm going to get hit... so why do it?
Why would any sane American choose to be gay? Wouldn't it be sooooo much easier for them to be heterosexual?
Think about it please.
09-08-03, 12:13 PM gizmogram I think the biggest issue at hand with this subject is the inability of the "couple", regardless of who they are, being able to get insurance on their partner - and nowadays, that's a huge issue.
Without a marriage certificate, a partner cannot be added to a health insurance policy. I think that a new category needs to be added to the form when signing up for health insurance -"significant other".
Not just homosexual couples have this dilemma - heterosexual couples that choose not to marry do as well. There needs to be a consideration made, since this is happening more and more at this point in our time.
I don't know if it will ever change, but feel badly for those that cannot take advantage of getting insurance just because they aren't married.
09-09-03, 12:29 AM honilov
Frankvan and Notinmyname, I'm talking about choosing to be in a same sex relationship. What part of that is confusing?
Oh yeah, you're probably tell me that they were born like that. Right? Now I'm Confused
I guess I fell in love with my husband because women and men were made/created for each other.
09-09-03, 12:39 AM notinmyname I would guess Janie was 'born like that.' After all homosexuality exists even in the animal kingdom. Cows even.
I assume you have some religious reason for dehumanizing of my relatives. Regardless of how their love came to be, it is as real as any you have experienced.
09-09-03, 01:43 AM honilov Notinmyname, I'm not de-humanizing your relatives. I was just speaking my opinion on the topic. And yes, maybe religion does play a role in it, as well. Don't think hard of me for voicing my opinions because I can't help from feeling like I do about this issue. I have much respect for your feelings/opinions and I'm sure there are a lot of things that we don't agree on, and it's probably a lot of things that we do agree on. This is just a very debatable topic.
Let there be no hard feelings between us, and I'm sorry if it appears that I'm de-humanizing your relatives. Smile
09-09-03, 03:25 PM notinmyname Honilove, I don't know how chatty this board is but I will tell you that before I actually met my sisters-in-law I felt somewhat opposed to same sex marriages. So I actually understand your feelings more than you might think. I do believe that it is religion that makes people unaccepting of my relatives.
My sisters-in-law are such a loving and kind couple, and its heart breaking to hear what they have suffered for being who they are. I don't know if its genetic or enviroment in the womb, or life experience.
But my relatives are wonderful people and their relationship is as good as any long term couple could hope for. Janie and I gossip about our spouses! Also, they have no competition for hosting the best family dinners for the holidays! Janie plays football with our kids at Thanksgiving, just like any uncle.
09-09-03, 04:46 PM DvdGStwrt
quote:Originally posted by honilov: Notinmyname, I'm sorry about Uncle Janie's accident, but your sister-in-law knew the ropes beforehand, so this shouldn't have been a shock to her.
If I jump out in front of a moving car, I know firsthand that I'm gonna get hit, so I can't complain about the consequences. Just an example of how we make choices in our life. Some good, and some bad. Smile
Hmmmmm. Really. Is that right? What can I tell ya?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,
David
09-09-03, 04:48 PM DvdGStwrt
quote:Originally posted by honilov: Frankvan and Notinmyname, I'm talking about choosing to be in a same sex relationship. What part of that is confusing?
Oh yeah, you're probably tell me that they were born like that. Right? Now I'm Confused
I guess I fell in love with my husband because women and men were made/created for each other.
Ummm, Er - Well, Sister, is that really you? I hear a change of tune - What happened?
David
09-09-03, 04:50 PM DvdGStwrt
quote:Originally posted by honilov: Notinmyname, I'm not de-humanizing your relatives. I was just speaking my opinion on the topic. And yes, maybe religion does play a role in it, as well. Don't think hard of me for voicing my opinions because I can't help from feeling like I do about this issue. I have much respect for your feelings/opinions and I'm sure there are a lot of things that we don't agree on, and it's probably a lot of things that we do agree on. This is just a very debatable topic.
Let there be no hard feelings between us, and I'm sorry if it appears that I'm de-humanizing your relatives. Smile
Gee I feel like your dehumanising me - after all of those questions you still feel this way? Wow.
Come on, you and hubby can come vist My Partner and me for a month, I think after a week you will get to see the real issues and how painfully normal gay couples really are.
David
09-09-03, 05:03 PM DvdGStwrt As a Gay man - yes I are one. I will tell you right now that I have come to the conclusion that marriage is worthless.
Divorce Facts:
In 1940, there were 264,000 divorces in the U.S.
In 1992, there were 1,215,000 divorces in the U.S.
Over 50% of first marriages end in divorce
60% of second marriages end in divorce
67% of all recent marriages will end in divorce
84% of African-American marriages end in divorce
40-45% of American children will spend part of their childhood living in a single parent home
60% of children born in the 1990’s will live in a single parent family before age 16
15% of the children will see their custodial parent divorce, remarry, and re-divorce before they reach age 18
1,000,000+ children are effected by divorce each year
In any year in the 1980’s, 12,000,000 children lived with a divorced parent
80% of these children were not given an explanation on why their parents divorced
50% of divorced people are back in court less than one year after the divorce is final. The number one issue is children.
Less than 25% of all homes are composed of the biological unit of mother, father, and their offspring.
80% of the time only one spouse wants the divorce
66% of the time the woman wants the divorce.
75% of all divorced people eventually remarry.
65% of remarriages involve children from a prior marriage.
80% of children of divorce are not given an explanation at to why their parents divorced.
65% of children living with a stepparent live with a stepfather.
75% of children of divorce end up going through a divorce themselves.
When counselors and therapists who work with with teens asked "What do you see as the major stresses/problems facing today's teenagers?" 72% of the respondents listed "Problems arising from parental divorce/remarriage."
A longevity study revealed that individuals from a divorced home live four years less than individuals from an intact home.
If a woman is left, it generally takes her five years to get over the anger.
If a man is left, it generally takes him ten years to get over the anger.
Tragically, over 50% of children will grow up in families where parents stay angry.
England’s divorce rate is around 40%
Australia’s divorce rate is around 33%
Much lower in Italy and many eastern European countries
For such a sacred and holy thing one would think the statistics would be far less lower and the numbers would reflect this sacred and holy Union which straights fight desperately to keep as being their own.
With all that Going for Marriage, you straight folk can have it.
Cheers
David
(PS on a religious note, Homosexuality is alluded too 8 times in the bible 16 times directly the word divorce is used 31 times - Think on that)
09-10-03, 12:44 AM honilov David, I would have no problem at all visiting you and your partner. I'm also sorry if it seem like I'm talking back and forth about gay couples. You got to realize that before I came to AP, I knew very little about the lifestyle of gays, and some of these posts threw me for a loop. Since I was totally against it, it will take me some time to really understand. I really do respect you and that's why I asked you so many questions because I knew you were honest. I'm not de-humanizing you in any way, it's just that these posts are so debatable.
This is actually how I believe I would feel if I was homosexual...I would be happy with my partner without all the hoopla about marriage and benefits. I believe I would understand that I am different, and accept it. I would understand if other people didn't accept/ understand it, without having hard feelings toward them.
Somehow, it seems like you've taken what I said the wrong way. I have nothing against homosexuals, it's just that I don't believe in their lifestyle, and there's a big difference. What more can I say, David? I like and respect you, and don't be surprised if I ask you a million more questions privately, because this is 'it', talking about this topic on the board. We've had several gay topics, and I always end up the villain. It seems like straight people are the controversial ones now. Talking about things changing!!!!!!
09-10-03, 08:22 AM aminator2002 Thank god for change honilov.
Think about it.
09-10-03, 06:42 PM gatman
quote:Originally posted by notinmyname: I would guess Janie was 'born like that.' After all homosexuality exists even in the animal kingdom. Cows even.
Oh please, now the cows are gay? Reminds me of that cartoon where the cows are dancing and drinking martinis till a car comes down the road. Then they revert to all fours chewing grass till the car is past. Show me the proof of this wacky claim. Supporters of gay is ok say it is genetic, it is a choice, it is not a choice, it is common in animals, and whatever else stumbles out of their mouths at the time.
The closest I come to seeing an explaination is as an addiction similar to amputee-wanna-be's or even smoking. Other than that it is a choice. Of course people do choose to start smoking don't they. You have probably read my opinions on gays on other threads. You want to show me a movie of a male cow having sex with another male cow?
09-10-03, 07:30 PM frankvan A male cow???
09-10-03, 08:21 PM Jelp01 Frank, If there's homosexuality amongst cows, then surely there can also be transsexualism, can't there??? Wink
09-10-03, 08:29 PM FredPuli Is that bull or bullocks, Gatman? Big Grin
As it happens, while I remain convinced that people are born, not made, homosexual and that the attraction to the same sex is not one of choosing between which sex to lust after, I would not choose cows as an example.
Cows will mount other cows true enough, but it seems to be triggered by other causes than something sexually driven; it may simply be dominance display, for example. You do not see cows fighting to get in with another cow in season or calling out for her as though lusting after her.
Likewise the lead male dog here will mount any young or visiting dog if he can. This is simply dominance.It is not homosexuality. It is a form of humiliating the other dog.The boss dog himself is driven to and attracted only by the ( here we go ; I bet I can't write the correct word on this site! Smile) 'female dog', as his prodigious feats in fence-climbing and the resulting litters show only too well! Big Grin 09-10-03, 09:40 PM
DorianGreyed (with apologies to Gelett Burgess)
I never saw a Male Cow;
I never hope to See One;
But I can Tell you, Anyhow,
I'd rather See than Be One.
09-10-03, 09:48 PM notinmyname Okay lesbian or gay cows. It was in Science News several years ago. You can check Nature about macaques and gayness.
09-10-03, 09:52 PM notinmyname Yeah Fred, dominance that's what's going on in the Castro in SF. I think that's a different kind of kinkiness.
It sounds like an attempt to rationalise the fact that homosexuality/lesbianism occurs in animals and still maintain that its an 'un-natural' act.
[This message was edited by notinmyname on 09-10-03 at 10:04 PM.]
09-10-03, 11:07 PM Tree Interesting thread.
All I can say is that my thoughts on this are "live and let live".
DvdGStwrt - your post on divorces... I'd HAVE to agree that marriage IS the #1 cause of divorce. I can't recall who spoke that originally, but it's humorously true.
Giz, where I live you can put your common-law spouse on your medical plan if you've lived together for 6 months, without a marriage certificate! Some plans may vary as far as the time lived together, but I think most are 6 months to 1 year.
Smile
09-11-03, 07:42 AM MrsS Actually, Notinmyname, most of the BDSM crowd hangs out more in SOMA and shops on FolsomWink
09-11-03, 10:16 AM notinmyname Yes, MrsS South of Market is SOMA right? I visit San Francisco rather infrequently anymore and avoid South of Market.
My dear husband pointed out that these dominatrix cows (FredP thought were not really doing anything homosexual/lesbian) were really into LEATHER!
09-11-03, 11:21 AM aminator2002 Homosexual Marriage lmao - "not into leather"... that is REALLY funny ! Big Grin
09-11-03, 04:48 PM FredPuli Talking of this stuff, what exactly does a cowpoke do and is it legal in all states ? Confused Big Grin
09-11-03, 07:29 PM gatman LOL I knew that would not escape unnoticed. Thought of it after I had posted. Mea culpa.
Nature is a much more believable source than subversive.com NIMN. Nothing like a moving picture to show the truth though. Even then it is somewhat subjective. With the males of any species I think it would be less up to the viewer as to sexual intent. Bring on the doumentary film by a group of researchers both for and against the concept. I am open to changing my view if the truth shows it. Now a dominatrix cow dressed in leather. hmmmm
