Whether or not gays are allowed to marry legally, are there any titles which describe gay couples? I mean that we are familiar with "Mr. and Mrs." for a heterosexual legally married couple. What can identify two males together or two females together, whether or not legally married? Serious and humorous responses will be tolerated. ************************************************** 08-13-03, 02:30 AM angela-cc I have only heard them called a married gay or homosexual couple. I don't ever recollect any other titles.
08-13-03, 07:43 AM Elexina Gay couples that I know refer to each other as "partners," if they are not married and usually as "my wife," or "my husband," if they are. I would introduce them as "Jen and her wife so-and-so," for example. I think that "Mr. and Mr. Brown" would be acceptable for male gay couples, but that is only if one of them changes their name. The same is true for female couples. If one changes here name, they could be "Mrs. and Mrs. Smith." It depends on personal preference, too. I, for one, still refer to myself as "Ms." even though I am married and have added my husbands' name onto my own. Married lesbian couples might prefer "Ms. and Ms. Smith."
08-13-03, 03:45 PM DvdGStwrt Mr and Mr Stewart-Williams was attached to an invitation once.
Sometimes we get letters addressed to Mrs. D Stewart, in that case I hand it over to my partner. LOL
When the bill collectors call and ask to speak to my partner and he is not around, then they ask if they can speak to his wife. I really do get a kick out of saying, 'This is he.'
Big Grin
Since there is no legal marriage for same sex partners, the point is moot. Getting a name change for any other reason than marriage is difficult and requires a lot of legal fees. Thus most couples hold on to their birth name. The formal title being Mr. Miss/Ms. whatever their last name is.
Depending on who I am around I have several ways to carefully mention my other half.
"My other half"
"My better half"
"My Spouse"
"My Partner"
"My significant other"
"My husband"
"Ye old Ball and Chain"
"Roommate"
Again it depends on who I am talking too and if they know I am or am not gay.
Many people see the ring on my finger and not knowing me ask how my wife is, if I have kids, etc. That can lead to some 'interesting' conversations where I carefully pick and choose non-gender specific pronouns, or even bald face lie and talk about my 'wife'.
It depends on who I am talking with, if I get the impression that the person I'm dealing with may not be receptive to my being gay I will lie and let them believe what ever might make their world view of me appear good and right.
For instance I know one woman who readily tells me just how bad those people (gays) are. She can expound for hours (and has once) on the evil intent of the homosexuals to destroy family values and convert the world to their sinful lifestyles. She is a client, not a friend. I do work for her and let her have her opinion. I nod and half listen and go about my work.
She has no idea that I am gay, she never asked mind, always assumed - and she thinks that I'm the best thing that has happened to the world since sliced bread.
She has never asked about my wife. Perhaps one day she will and I will say that my wife is actually a man - Think her opinion of me will change? LOL
Last Christmas she gave us a card addressed to Mr and Mrs. Stewart (I wear a wedding ring, thus the assumption) I did not correct her. She is a client, I work for her and that is it. I would not be her friend, and if I was I would tell her exactly where I stand.
When we send out Christmas cards they are addressed from D&D the initials of our first names. Sometimes it's D&D and Kids, referring to the two cats and our dog.
For clients we sign 'From the Stewart Family' Since they know my full name. For personal Cards we sign, David, D----, & Kids.
There is the general assumption that homosexuals have 'gender based' rolls. I have been asked: "Do you play the woman or the man?" by unknowing individuals.
The answer is: "There are two guys, I'm mostly a top but versatile."
Top and Bottom is applied in a half hazard manner. It is assumed that these 'labels' applies to what goes on in bed only, but actually portray the dominate/submissive rolls that take place in all relationships. I am a dominate, meaning a leader in the household. My partner is more submissive meaning he follows my lead. I can do the other roll, depends on who I am with at the time, this is called versatile.
This does not mean that I'm a man and he is a woman, if one has ever met a straight couple where the woman takes the lead (is more dominate) than the male that does not preclude that the woman is a man and the man is a woman (though jokes abound on the subject).
With this feature of relationships in play and the fact that I am "straight acting" and my partner is more "gay acting" there is the assumption that he would take on my last name.
This is based on the male dominated tradition of the woman taking the man's last name upon marriage. Today more women are opting to keep their maiden name. How that works out is that the Man is called Mr. so and so and the woman is usually called Ms. So and so.
Since I am the more dominate in our relationship, our friends will address me first (David and D-------- or Stewart-Williams) This is due to the generations of the 'male' being dominate and the female being submissive. This is like addressing Mr. and Mrs. in a straight marriage.
We have actually discussed this and we came to the conclusion that I would adopt his last name - Eek Sounds strange to most who consider me to be the 'dominate one' However it is a logical choice since I do not do banking and have all those credit cards and all that stuff that would require a lot of changes.
Cheers
David
08-13-03, 03:48 PM honilov Elexina, Mr. and Mr. or Mrs. and Mrs. just wouldn't sound right. If they were together, and someone said Mr. Smith, they wouldn't know who was being addressed.
If they were to marry, it seem appropriate to me for each to keep their given name, since they are of the same sex.
Professionally, with respect, every adult are referred to, with a title.
08-13-03, 04:08 PM honilov David, I'm getting personal here, so bear with me. I thought gay men might want their title to be Ms., and lesbians would want their title to be Mr...There must be something that I'm not understanding, because I've always thought that gays/sissies wanted to be women, and lesbians/bulldaggers wanted to be men.
Some gay men even change their first names to a woman's name, so it appears that they want to be called Ms.
I think what I'm trying to ask you is...are you and your partner men, that want to be women.
If you want to cuss me, maybe I deserve it. Confused
08-13-03, 07:56 PM Silver Thunder I think that this is a great posting for replies and have been in fits of laughter with some of what I have read. I don't know what a gay male partner should be called. But as usual David has come up with almost every entry in the book. The law in the U/K is about to be changed to I think recognise some sort of gay marriage which will be a civil affair at the registrar office but it will give gays equal rights Smile in law which is long overdue. To my mind I would prefer to keep my own name as I am happy with it. I don't think that you can go too far in applying the same standards of hetrosexual marriages to gay marriages such as changing your name to your partners or vice versa. I would just be happy to wear a silver ring on my left hand as a sign of belonging to someone. I don't consider marriage to be that important. After all you need to be able to trust your other half and that is more important to me than anything else. A great statement but I am still looking for Mr Right and maybe some of you could give me a few pointers or words of advice to help in my search! Smile
08-13-03, 08:18 PM Sherasi Honi, I do not think gay women want to be a man, or gay men want to be a woman. I simply think those individuals are attracted to those of their own sex. I also know that there are some straight men that are more effeminate and some straight woman are more masculine.
I really doubt that gay couples would change their name based on how masculine or feminine they behave.
08-13-03, 11:35 PM honilov Sherasi, I haven't seen many openly gay women, but I've seen a lot of gay men. A lot of these men that I've seen, wear lipstick, fake boobs, wigs, carry purses, and swerve so much when they walk, until they almost fall, but you can still tell that they're men. Now here is the question...if they don't want to be women, why would they do all of this? If their inward feelings are all that's important, why the fake outward look? They can be attracted to their own sex without changing their looks...like David say he does.
08-14-03, 04:50 AM Elexina Honilov, these men you have described are transsexuals or cross-dressers. The former feel that they were born with the incorrect body, the latter enjoy wearing clothes of the opposite sex. Neither of these groups is necessarily gay.
The proper title for a man is "Mr." I cannot imagine why a woman would want to be called "Mr." nor why a man would want to be referred to as "Miss," "Mrs." or "Ms."
As David said, it's really a moot point. "Mr. and Mr." might not sound right to you, but it sounds fine to me. And people who know the couple well would just use their first names, as they would when referring to any straight couple. Of course, when one of my lesbian friends was dating a girl with the same first name as she... that was interesting.
08-14-03, 11:20 AM MrsS All I know for sure is that if I were sending a letter to the couple collectively I would address the envelope to The Messrs. Adams-Smythe or to The Mesdames Jones-Worthy....occasionally my ettiquette book addiction pays off... I borrowed this form for addressing multiple related persons at the same address from a very old Emily Post.
08-14-03, 01:12 PM frankvan David, as usual, performs a very useful and educational service. It seems obvious that a great deal of confusion and awkwardness can and does result from persistent stereotypical notions. I believe that the use of such terms as "same sex" as opposed to "opposite sex" relationships contributes to many misconceptions based exclusively on genitalia. Our true gender is more a function of where we fit on a broad spectrum ranging from the most feminine woman to the most masculine man, whatever those two terms might mean. It might mean from the "most to the least evolved". And anyhow, aren't we something more than just the equipment for producing eggs or fertilizing them?
08-14-03, 02:45 PM Katanya2000 [QUOTE]Originally posted by honilov: David, I'm getting personal here, so bear with me. I thought gay men might want their title to be Ms., and lesbians would want their title to be Mr...There must be something that I'm not understanding, because I've always thought that gays/sissies wanted to be women, and lesbians/bulldaggers wanted to be men. QUOTE]
This is an incorrect and biased generalization. Elexina is correct in stating that people who cross-dress and present themselves as a gender opposite their own are transsexuals, and are not necessarily gay. Because many of these people are gay, it's become a stereotype, but it's inaccurate. If you don't ever see gay people that "act straight" that's probably because you weren't aware that they were gay. Most gay people don't wear a sign or tell everyone they meet their sexual preference.
To assume that all gay men want to be women is as grossly inaccurate to say that all "black" people are drug-dealers. However, I know many people that will swear to the truth of both statements. I hope that eventually we, as a society, can move beyond such bigoted labels.
08-14-03, 03:29 PM Georgia85 Elexina...we could confuse Honi even more and tell her that a man who is a transexual and has the operation and becomes transgendered is not "gay" because he/she is now in the body that he/she feels comfortable in now and thus is free to love his/her boyfriend as a woman now.
Confused yet? Big Grin
08-14-03, 06:18 PM DvdGStwrt
quote:Originally posted by honilov: David, I'm getting personal here, so bear with me. I thought gay men might want their title to be Ms., and lesbians would want their title to be Mr...There must be something that I'm not understanding, because I've always thought that gays/sissies wanted to be women, and lesbians/bulldaggers wanted to be men.
Some gay men even change their first names to a woman's name, so it appears that they want to be called Ms.
I think what I'm trying to ask you is...are you and your partner men, that want to be women.
If you want to cuss me, maybe I deserve it. Confused
LOL - That would be Transgendered, or transsexual.
Gays and lesbians are men and women who prefer people of the same sex.
I no more want to be a woman that you would want to be a man. However, I do like to be with men.
Now yes, there are cross dressers out there who are gay, but there are also (but not talked about I notice) straight men who wear woman's clothing. This is different than being gay.
I just Asked my partner if he wants to be a woman, he said 'No thank you.'
Sexual Identity is slightly different than Gender Identity. There are people out there who believe and feel that that were born in the wrong gender body.
These people are not necessarily gay, they are misplaced in the wrong container. They will freely admit that they want to have heterosexual relationships where they are the other gender that what they are born.
Gays are men who like being men and who also like being with men.
Lesbians are women who like being women and who also like being with women.
I would be greatly offended if my partner wanted to have is hoo-hoo cut off and grow ya-yas, start wearing dresses and all that. I'm attracted to his masculinity (though it isn't as strong as mine). I wouldn't feel comfortable with a woman (even if she used to be a he).
Does that make any sense? LOL
Trust me, your confusion on the matter is a common one. Thus the myth-conceptions of homosexuality.
Cheers
David
08-14-03, 06:35 PM Sherasi David, very informative (and amusing... "hoo Hoo's"... "Ya ya's") answer. Big Grin
08-14-03, 08:33 PM honilov Georgia, you are somewhat right about me being more confused. I was thinking of only gay and lesbian, but now there are...gays, lesbians, transexuals, cross-dressers, transgendered, and straight men that wear women clothes.
David, I think the straight men that's wearing women clothing is the big shocker to me. Why on earth would a straight man want to wear women clothing...unless he's fooling himself?
Katanya, you came on a little too strong, because I'm 'only' trying to learn/understand. I knew very little, except what the eyes could see. I have learned more of what's in their mind, after reading all the posts. So far as me thinking all gay men wanted to be women...that was just an honest 'misunderstanding' to me, because of lack of knowledge.
08-14-03, 09:00 PM MrsS
quote:
David, I think the straight men that's wearing women clothing is the big shocker to me. Why on earth would a straight man want to wear women clothing...unless he's fooling himself?
Many times it is for the exact same reason women like frilly, silky or satiny things....they feel good! I know the answer to that comment is that there are silks and satins for men...and for some men that is a fine solution, but if you are a man who was brought up believing that is is "unmanly" to want that kind of sensual fabric(and a whole host of related "manly" rules that make any softness taboo) it seems a natural progression to me that such a man would then secretly indulge the desire. Women have it a lot easier in this regard than men do...we can don silk and velvet one day and wear denim jeans and a MAN'S button down shirt the next and all that will be said is that we have our own sense of style.... There is an old saying that the clothes make the man...well, in Western society, it is regarded as the truth.
08-15-03, 10:12 AM Georgia85 OK class...repeat after me....FETISH
There are straight men who like to wear women's clothes. There are also straight men who like to wear diapers. There are also straight men who like to wear dog collars....
In a world where money equates power and vice versa a lot of professional men give their all at the office. On their off time they don't want to be so powerful and thus resort to women's clothing to feel pampered and luxurious...or diapers to feel like someone is taking care of them...or dog collars to have someone else in control for awhile.
Don't ask me how I know all of this Wink
P.S. The above statement is a generalization...does not apply to ALL men who enjoy the above mentioned items but it does give you an idea of some of the men and why they do this.
08-15-03, 12:39 PM DvdGStwrt
quote:Originally posted by honilov:
David, I think the straight men that's wearing women clothing is the big shocker to me. Why on earth would a straight man want to wear women clothing...unless he's fooling himself?
Ah yeah, there is that and a bag of chips floating around out there too Wink
I honestly have no idea why any man would want to wear those things. I can not fathom it. I dressed like a woman for Halloween once, nearly broke an ankle in those "shoes", all that stuff on my face lead to a rash and the bra and pantyhose were awful to wear. The dress was nice a silken leopard print - well actually it wasn't nice at all; it was too cold and hung in all the wrong ways - I hated dressing up as a woman.
What we wear does not define our sexuality. If it did then I would have to question why ladies wear pants (We all know that pants are what men wear, ladies wear skirts and dresses). Then I would also have to question the Scots in their kilts - After all, those kilts do look a lot like skirts (But then I know enough kilt wearing Scotsmen to know that that kilt does not affect their masculinity.)
Now to add a touch more confusion to the dress wearing. You have your 'Performing' Drag Queens, these usually dress in outlandish clothing, take on outlandish names like 'Chichi la boom-boom' and prance and over act 'woman' these are performers and do it as an art form. It is a comedy routine and they know it as such.
But there are others, ones who do 'woman' in a more realistic form, street ladies wear who act and can easily pass for a woman. Trust me, I have met several of this kind of cross dresser, aside from their adam's apple, you couldn't tell the difference.
Sexuality is not black and white (Male and Female) All of us are a mixture to one extent or another. Those 'Sensitive men' that women tend to pine for are masculine males which a larger touch of woman than the burly, belly scratching, knuckle dragging male stereo-type.
Unfortunately our society is to blame for Male/Female rolls. When a baby boy is born the the brain washing begins: Blue room, Footballs, sports Gear and later GI Joe, Tonka Trucks, Lincoln Logs, et cetera.
When a baby Girl is born, pink room, frilly lace, dolls and later on Easy bake oven, Tea Parties, make-up Barbie, et cetera.
Does this sound 'normal' to you? It doesn't to me, but then I know several straight women who can handle a set of tools sometimes even better than me. I know several straight men who are chefs.
These Gender Rolls are unrealistic, they are usually demeaning to both genders and cast us into defined rolls which may not be who or what we are.
It all boils down to the old myths that men are hunters and women stay at home and raise babies.
As the Women's Liberation movement showed, many people are not comfortable with the appointed rolls based on their gender. As Women have shown time and time again, they are able to take on the traditional 'male' rolls, making better CEO's, being better mechanics, doctors, lawyers, etc. Little has been done to make it possible for males to show that they can make better 'mommies' better 'house wives' better cooks and what not.
I think the subject of 'Male and Female Clothing' is an interesting one, I confess, I often wonder why women get all the good fabrics and men are stuck with the wool, flannel and cotton in plaids, solids and boring prints. I note with a bit of angst that the department stores cater to women's wear, placing them on the first floor and having them set out in all their lovely array, while the men's department is either in the far rear, or shoved up stairs.
Why is it that Pink is for Girls and blue is for Boys? Why is it that Girls get to use the easy-bake oven and establish an early interest in baking while boy's are suppose to play with footballs and develop an early sports career? Why do girls get to have tea parties and develop polite social behaviors while boys are taught how to make war with GI Joe?
Personally I think the 'normal' way we define gender is a little weird.
David
08-15-03, 02:53 PM honilov Gay Titles Georgia, 'men wearing diapers', I think I've heard it all now. Too bad you told us not to ask you how you know. Big Grin
David, you sure know how to explain things, where they are understandable. Most people have never stopped to think about why there's blue for boys, and pink for girls, and so on. You make some valid points about a lot of things.
08-15-03, 04:19 PM Gin David, I have always read your post with interest. You are providing a great source of information we would not ordinarily know about.
A family member of mine is gay and I have always wanted to ask questions but did not want to invade his privacy. Thanks you for enlightening me and others.
Cheers to you and your partner! Smile
Gin
08-15-03, 08:29 PM Georgia85 Honi...that is just the tip of the ice-berg! There is a world of fetish out there that I couldn't not even begin to get into. Of course if you want to know more...you know how to reach me! Wink
David, I have a feeling if we were neighbors we'd be getting along just fine. Being in the entertainment business for awhile I had nothing but gay male friends. Yes I was quite the Fag Hag and wore that title proudly.
08-16-03, 02:02 AM DvdGStwrt Honilov: See the Sexual Revolution has yet to begin - we, as a society who believes in equality, really need to look at the programing we do to our kids.
Gin: How about a person to person talk? Seriously, Most gay people are willing to answer question, few will volunteer information especially to family members out of fear of rejection. Maybe you could have your family member read this set of posts and then talk some-more.
Georgia: Fetishes - Heh, heh, heh - yes there are many out there lol
Cheers
David
08-16-03, 06:07 AM Katanya2000
quote:Originally posted by Georgia85: Honi...that is just the tip of the ice-berg! There is a world of fetish out there that I couldn't not even begin to get into. Of course if you want to know more...you know how to reach me! Wink
David, I have a feeling if we were neighbors we'd be getting along just fine. Being in the entertainment business for awhile I had nothing but gay male friends. Yes I was quite the Fag Hag and wore that title proudly.
Georgia, you're a Buckhead girl through and through! Speaking of drag queens, I've never been to Backstreet but I've always wanted to go. Maybe you and I can hook up and go one weekend? Wink
08-16-03, 06:22 AM Katanya2000 Honi, men in diapers is only the tip of the ice burg.
Believe it or not, those will most likely be worn by a male, if bought. For a little more education on the topic, type in the keywords adult baby in the ebay search box. It's pretty much the ONLY place you can find out more about such practices without being assulted with a lot of "adult" images and such.
08-16-03, 05:41 PM Gin David: Last night a few family members got together for a night of fun. I spoke with my brother in law and his partner about this post and we were all comfortable talking about the subject.
It has been known for years they are gay but no one talked about it. They have been together for about 15 years.
I love these guys and they have much to show the world about commitment and true love.
David, thanks, for the your post that triggered our communication.
08-16-03, 06:23 PM honilov Katanya, I checked out the site. They even call them 'sissy panties'. Little, did I know. Smile
08-16-03, 06:51 PM MrsS Gin...Would your brother and/or his partner be interested in joining AP? I am sure that David must be a little overwhelmed being(as far as I've seen)the sole spokesperson for the gay community around here....and I join you in thanking David, my thanks are for his ongoing patience and candor.
08-16-03, 08:22 PM Gin Yes, MrsS, I did invite them...neither go to answer boards but I'm still trying a little persuasion.
After all, Answerpool is not an ordinary question/answer board. We are a group of people from all points of the world who have come together. It's feels like family here. Smile
08-17-03, 12:35 PM jusork Don't forget about furries! I think I remember a furry on jeeves actually.
08-17-03, 01:06 PM Sherasi Furry?
08-17-03, 03:33 PM jusork Here, this seems like a helpful site.
08-17-03, 03:50 PM DvdGStwrt
quote:Originally posted by Gin: David: Last night a few family members got together for a night of fun. I spoke with my brother in law and his partner about this post and we were all comfortable talking about the subject.
It has been known for years they are gay but no one talked about it. They have been together for about 15 years.
I love these guys and they have much to show the world about commitment and true love.
David, thanks, for the your post that triggered our communication.
Hey Gin, I'm glad to hear that you had a chat - David
08-17-03, 03:51 PM DvdGStwrt
quote:Originally posted by MrsS: Gin...Would your brother and/or his partner be interested in joining AP? I am sure that David must be a little overwhelmed being(as far as I've seen)the sole spokesperson for the gay community around here....and I join you in thanking David, my thanks are for his ongoing patience and candor.
Actually I'm not the only one from the GLBT community here - there are others, reading, watching but not letting on (You know who you are Big Grin)
David
08-17-03, 09:03 PM honilov David, if there are other Gays/Lesbians here watching, reading, and not letting on, it would seem to me that they think it's not 'right'. Otherwise, why not let on? If that's the way they are thinking, then you can see why straights think it's odd. Smile
08-17-03, 11:08 PM Sherasi Honi, I am sure there are many people reading but not posting regardless of their orientation.
Some people simply take a long while to evaluate a site and some simply do not care to commit their opinions or thoughts online very much.
I can respect their decision, but I, personally, enjoy plastering my opinion all over the place too much to be "silent"! Big GrinBig GrinBig Grin
08-18-03, 03:58 AM DvdGStwrt
quote:Originally posted by honilov: David, if there are other Gays/Lesbians here watching, reading, and not letting on, it would seem to me that they think it's not 'right'. Otherwise, why not let on? If that's the way they are thinking, then you can see why straights think it's odd. Smile
Ah. David has a story for you:
I was once asked if homosexuals really loved each other, then why don't the hold hands, kiss, hug.
I looked at the person for a moment. What flashed through my mind was the beating I got from a gang of good ole boy's who wanted to teach the fagot a lesson - and all I did was walk out of a gay bar.
I thought of all the times fagot was screamed at me in a very abusive manner, and I recalled that having been 'caught' touching my partner (an arm around his shoulder on a beach) got the hardest of stares and the whispered word of hatred 'fagot' hissed with much venom, that venom stung quite deep.
Then I thought of all the times I was told I was hated by God because I was gay and I was going to hell. How, just because I was one of em homosexuals, that I was beyond redemption. Trust me, there are a lot of homosexuals who have actually come to believe that God hates them simply because they have been told that enough.
I thought of the thousands of times I had been called a pervert, sick-o, sissy, etc. to my face and behind my back.
I could only shake my head and say, 'Because we are fagots.'
The sad truth of the matter is that homosexuals are hated for being gay. They are called all manner of things, are subject to violence (trust me, many a gay men have been 'taught a thing or two' by a gang of good ole boys).
We are called 'abnormal' 'sick' 'mentally ill' 'sinners' Considered to be hated by God, are basically the scum of the earth by many.
fagot is derogatory to all races. Think on that a moment. It is one word that all the races in America can use without being offense to a race - just a person. This word is perhaps more well used than say the N word, or 'cracker' - and all the other racial slurs.
Way back on Jeeves (Answer point) I came out on the boards.
There were two seasons where I was the recipient of a lot of hate mail by someone who used known regular posters names or variations there of through hot-mail and yahoo and a few other free email services. In those email they spouted long and hard on just how horrible, how hated, how worthless I truly am.
One common theme was 'You can't be a Christian because your gay - Jesus hates homosexuals'.
Each letter based this on one thing, one thing only - my being gay.
I'm not the only gay person in the world who can tell you these things - There are plenty out there who have been renounced by the own families, kicked out and forgotten simply because they are gay.
Now why do you think they do not want to come out to a group of strangers?
See The Straights can't see our love for one another, but when we kiss, touch, hug, or hold hands we are told 'That's Disgusting' 'that's Sick!'
So we do not touch and we are considered unloving. We do not show public signs of affection in order to keep the peace, then we are just considered sex fiends.
The Straights see our silence as shame, not understanding that when we do come out we are hated, told we are 'sick and perverted' told that we are worse than the lowest form of life, told that we should keep our mouths shut.
It is a lose - lose situation, one which can not be won simply because no matter what we do - well, you know.
David
08-18-03, 08:47 AM Georgia85 Katanya - I would LOVE to have someone to go with to Backstreets!!! I know Charlie Brown from way back when I was directing "Atlanta Alive" TV show. He was a guest - along with some of the finer Female Impersonators. And he had the AUDACITY to tell me I needed to wear more blush!
FYI - to all you APers who don't know who Charlie Brown is....she is Atlanta's version of RuPaul...you do know who RuPaul is doncha?
P.S. David, you will never be judged by me....and when I see 2 men hug and kiss all I can do is feel jealous that they have found someone to love...and that I am still looking...
08-18-03, 01:14 PM frankvan honilov, just to add an observation of my own to what David has already explained. During our strictly heterosexual marriage of sixty years duration, my wife and I have formed friendships with both homosexual and lesbian couples. To the ignorant gay-bashers, we are only slightly less despicable than the gays themselves. It is really only a variation of the more familiar abuse directed at those whites who stand up for the rights of fellow citizens of color. I have been called a "****** lover" at least as often as I have come under suspicion of being a "closet" faggot. I'm happy to say that such incidents are far less frequent than they were in the days when I served in a segregated U.S Army. I do detect some slight progress during the past sixty plus years, but I can well appreciate the reluctance of some of us to volunteer their opinion or their orientation.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
Thanks David and Frankvan. I had no idea that things were that rough with gays. Thanks to answerpool, this is another topic that I've learned so much about.
David, I've never hated gay men, and you can count me as your friend. I have to admit though that I've never wanted to be around Lesbians, because of a certain incident...When I was 19, I was approached at a St. Louis bus station by a lesbian, and I didn't know she was gay. A nice gentleman that knew her, came up to us and told her to get lost, and told me she was a bulldaggar, and that she hangs around bus stations and try to pick up strangers. From that day on, I felt that I wanted to stay clear of Lesbians, I have nothing against gay men, or women but I still don't want to be around Lesbians by myself. It's just an uneasy feeling I get, and I know you can 'understand' that, and can't fault me for it. I don't hate them though, and I would never do anything to harm them, just because they're Lesbians. I hope you never have to experience such treatment again. It's just not fair. I also hope Lesbians never have to endure that kind of treatment either. *************************************************** 08-19-03, 12:33 AM DvdGStwrt Sorry About that Honilove,
Don't let one person decide your feelings for the group. There are bad apples everywhere.
Now I'm going to rant, not against you Honilove, nor anyone else, but rant I will. since the topic has gone this far, I will let you know exactly what life is like for us, my partner and me.
My Partner and I have been together for 6 years (feels like more - in a good way).
We have had our ups and downs our disagreements and our shared joys. I believe that he is the one for me, and I can not see myself with anyone else ever. Heck, I can't see myself being alone and I can't figure out how I was able to manage before him.
We are a two income household. But we can not file taxes jointly, nor can he get the benefits of my struggling business - as spouses can when their spouse has a small business on the brink.
We had two separate medical insurers up until late last year when my insurer raised the premiums (again). I had to give up mine (Trust me, for the past two years we have been doing without with a lot of things).
It's not like we didn't try 5 years ago when he got that wonderful medical package to have me signed on - but I fear that 'domestic partners' are not eligible to be on the policy. No big deal back then, but today it sure would be nice to know that I could go to the doctor to get my throat checked. It will pass (I hope).
Three years ago I had knee surgery. In order for me to have my partner as a visitor, we had to lie, 'This is my brother' - Why? because of the strict family only policies.
I really do not own my truck - officially it is my partner's name, that was so we could get both vehicles on one policy which saved us hundreds of dollars.
Sadly, that has lead to a series of problems. For instance, when the truck threw a rod, I could not get a loan for the new engine because the truck was in his name, and by golly don't cha know, the loan officer confessed that if he was my wife....
So I don't own my truck. Big deal, right?
When it came time for us to prepare for the future we had to deal with a very real issue, that issue being my mother who, in the event I had an untimely death, would (and stated this clearly many times) not give 'that man' (meaning my partner) the time of day let alone anything in this house that was owned by me.
See, since all he is is a 'room mate' he can not lay claim to anything in the event of my death. So we spent thousands to make airtight wills which the attorney informs me can still be contested which means that everything I own would go in trust while the courts made their decision on weather or not I was of sound mind and body when I made the will.
Thing my mother will not do it? Oh she would, even if she knew she couldn't win, she would make as big of a fuss as possible. In this case it would mean that my partner would not only have to deal with grief, but would have to wait for any financial aid and would have to face the prosepect of possibly losing the things we share.
Two of everything, simply because there is no legal recourse for us. Except to lie, to cheat and to find ways to get around the system.
Are you getting an inkling why gays what marriage rights? Legally and financially we are screwed, we have to lie, cheat, omit and basically jump through the loop holes and keep our fingers crossed that we can keep it altogether in the event of an emergency.
We are deeply in love with each other. We live in our own place, we both work, we both do all the stuff everyone else does.
We are not on the front lines of gay activism, heck, I even took down the rainbow flag when the neighbors made a fuss. We keep it to ourselves, we don't go out and make a scene, we don't rub our neighbor's face in it.
When I meet potential clients and they ask about my wife (I do wear a ring which is the token of our love and commitment for one another), I either have to speak in nongender specific pronouns or just lie through my teeth. All because, let's face it, I am in business to make money so I have to swallow my pride, my beliefs, my life and my love in order to present a 'normal' appearance for working.
When we take the dog to the vet (She is both of ours) We were only given the option of one name. When a new receptionist at the vet's called they ask to speak to my partner, when I say he isn't there, they ask to speak to his wife.
Imagine the sadness of it all, not being recognized as a couple, not being seen as a unit, having to duck and dodge the 'hetero-world's expectations of 'normalcy' in order to live.
At home, alone, without the rest of the world we are happy, we are content, we see our relationship as right and know that we are in it for the the long haul.
Outside we are unhappy, always fighting for a toe hold in a society which would much rather prefer if we would disappear.
David
08-19-03, 07:21 AM Jelp01 I'm sorry to hear about all the trouble you and your partner have had, David. Your story is why there should be laws permitting civil unions for homosexuals. Maybe that day will come...maybe.
08-19-03, 08:41 AM Georgia85 Oh David....you should move to Buckhead, GA...or Midtown...not only would you be accepted here but depending on what company you worked for you would be able to cover your partner (and vice versa) under your insurance policy. Homosexuality is NOT hidden here. Men and women proudly live their choice of lifestyle out in the open. There is even a GAY phone directory that caters to businesses that are owned by gay businessmen. Heck, the vet I go to is even a gay owned company. That lifestyle is just not something that is hidden here. Even in the corporate world that lifestyle is not hidden.
I would have thought California would be as open as Atlanta is...
08-19-03, 10:15 AM Katanya2000 But step foot outside Atlanta....
Atlanta is a progressive, edgy little-big city. Big by southern standards, dwarfed by other major cities in the country. It really amazes me how progressive it really is when you consider that it is hemmed in on all sides by the disapproving, hating masses. I don't actually live in Atlanta, but a small town about an hour and a half drive away. Here homosexuality is reviled and scorned more than spousal abuse. Sad, but true. In fact, an opera house in town once had the temerity to show a group called "The Impotent Sea Serpents" which features lesbian acts. The opera house was closed down and the proprietor jailed. However, the same show thrives and enjoys a broad audience in Atlanta. Different worlds inside a single state. Modesto is not that large. I doubt they have the same liberal attitude of San Fansico and L.A....and if you don't want to live in the filth and smog of a city, what choice do you have but hide behind a brittle mask of socially acceptable relationships?
Really, it just makes me depressed when I think of it.
08-19-03, 11:39 AM DvdGStwrt Yeah. Well truth be told though San Francisco Legally accepts Domestic Partners, the Insurer in question is based outside of SF. Thus the issue.
Men and women can get legal documentation in SF, even Sacramento. These apply only to those towns and are worthless outside of those areas.
In time this too will pass.
However I have gotten a bit tired of it all.
David
09-10-03, 04:23 PM clarebear I usually just call my gay friends my friends. I don't have a title for them. (Although they call me a breeder on an occasion or two Wink)
Honilov,
Your post struck me the wrong way.
quote:I was approached at a St. Louis bus station by a lesbian, and I didn't know she was gay. A nice gentleman that knew her, came up to us and told her to get lost, and told me she was a bulldaggar, and that she hangs around bus stations and try to pick up strangers. From that day on, I felt that I wanted to stay clear of Lesbians
Listen to how that sounds:
When I was 19 a black woman tried to sell me drugs. She then tried to grab my purse. From that day on, I felt that I wanted to stay clear of black people. I have nothing against blacks but I still don't want to be around blacks by myself. It's just an uneasy feeling I get, and I know you can 'understand' that, and can't fault me for it.
(Now doesn't that sound ridiculous?)
You are stereotyping. People are all different and you can't judge an entire group by one of its members. Its unfair.
You could be missing out on some great friendships. Frown
09-10-03, 11:20 PM honilov Sorry Clarebear, but actually your rebuttal is far worse than anything that I said. I actually got a laugh out of it though.
Just to think, that you believe only Black people sell drugs and steals, is kind of funny. Anyway, there are white people today that don't want to be around Black people by themselves, so I guess they are missing out some great friendships, too. Frown
You could have used White people in your example, because they steal and sell drugs as well, but at least I know now what's your take on this. Wink
09-10-03, 11:39 PM methos honi - I don't think her example was any worse. Your story was about how an experience with one lesbian made you not want to be around any of them. Her (hypothetical) story was about someone having an experience with one black person and wanting to avoid all of them because of it. avoiding a group for the actions of one member of the group is ridiculous, whether that group is whites, hispanics, or blacks; men or women, or heterosexuals or homosexuals, and whether that experience is getting hit on or being offered drugs.
09-11-03, 07:35 AM MrsS Honilov....People are not grapes, you can't wiegh'em by the bunch...you have to judge one at a time.....Surely you have had a man make a crude and unwelcome pass at you at some point? Did that make you never want to be around men? Sometime during your life, a straight woman has probably wronged you in some way.....and yet you do not shun straight women,do you?
09-11-03, 09:36 AM honilov Methos, I see what you are trying to do, but the proof is in the pudding. Smile
By the way, we better not turn Clare's post into a total new thing. Peace
09-11-03, 09:40 AM methos I'm confused, honi, proof of what?
09-11-03, 03:52 PM honilov Methos, I really thought you would read between the lines, without me getting into a whole different debate. So I'll leave it like it is. Just consider my post the same as you do junk mail. I'm not gonna fight a losing battle in this thread.
09-11-03, 04:06 PM methos I'm reading between the lines, but I'd rather not as what I'm reading is an unfounded accusation. I would much rather hear that I was wrong than assume that my reading was correct.
What I'm trying to do is nothing more and nothing less than what Clare was trying to do.
Clare was using a situation that she (and I assume you) considered ridiculous to demonstrate that another situation was ridiculous. The first was avoiding all black people because of the actions of one black person (notice that she said this was a 'ridiculous' thing to do, and not that she actually felt this way). The second was avoiding all lesbians because of the actions of one lesbian. She and I feel this is equally ridiculous.
As far as her feeling that 'only black people sell drugs,' she never said any such thing.
09-11-03, 04:32 PM aminator2002 I used the example in another post:
If I hated all men because of the ones who have hit on me in an offensive, aggressive and unwelcome way... well, I would hate all men.
09-11-03, 04:59 PM clarebear
quote: Originally posted by Honilov: Just to think, that you believe only Black people sell drugs and steals, is kind of funny.
Do you really think that I feel that way? Let me explain it in one word = analogy.
quote:Originally posted by Honilov: From that day on, I felt that I wanted to stay clear of Lesbians, I have nothing against gay men, or women but I still don't want to be around Lesbians by myself. It's just an uneasy feeling I get, and I know you can 'understand' that, and can't fault me for it.
quote:Originally posted by Clarebear:From that day on, I felt that I wanted to stay clear of black people. I have nothing against blacks but I still don't want to be around blacks by myself. It's just an uneasy feeling I get, and I know you can 'understand' that, and can't fault me for it.
I said practically word for word your post and replaced the word lesbian with the word black to show you how ridiculous it sounds. Those were your words not mine. (I just changed the word lesbian to black) Maybe you should look again. I could have replaced the word with anything and it would be just as ridiculous. My whole point (which you completely missed) was that is is wrong to judge an entire group by one of its members.
09-11-03, 07:31 PM honilov Methos, one last try at this. I used something that had actually happened. Now in order for Clare to use an example...why do you think she just politely thought about Black people?
Clare, why didn't White people just accidently pop in your head?
I don't care how much this racist post is sugar-coated...a blind man can see it for what it's worth.
I'm sorry this thread went all the way from Gay to Black.
09-11-03, 07:56 PM MrsS Uhm....maybe because that's a group that is not the one she was born into? Maybe you'd have found Clare's post more palatable if she'd used "White" or "Purple", but I do not see racism in her post, I see a valid analogy to your post.... you chose to base your feeling about a group to which you do not belong on a single encounter....during which, as you told it, nothing bad actually happened. You were uncomfortable, but never in any danger based on your account. I have to ask again, have you avoided all men because one made an unwelcome advance? Have you declined to be friends with all straight women based on one incident in which you were wronged somehow by a heterosexual female? Are all Ford owners to be avoided because you were once cut off in traffic by a Mustang?
09-11-03, 08:09 PM methos honi - I don't know what color clare's skin is.
If she is white, then making the statement with 'white' inserted wouldn't be a good analogy to what you said, unless you are, in fact, a lesbian.
In any case, I have to assume that since you accuse her of racism against blacks based on her choice to use blacks in her example, you would also accuse her of racism against whites if she chose whites as an example. Would you?
09-11-03, 08:21 PM clarebear
quote:I don't care how much this racist post is sugar-coated...a blind man can see it for what it's worth.
Oh come on... you have got to be kidding!
And just for the record I am not black nor am I white. I am Lithuanian. You can put your race card away now cause it has no place in this thread. You are prejudice against people who are gay. You stereotype entire groups of people and when you can't explain why you have to turn the table and say I'm a sugar coasted racist. OFRLMAO! I never really have been in a discussion with you before but now I know what to expect. Roll Eyes
09-11-03, 10:45 PM honilov Gay Titles Clare, you can't expect all discussions with me to be like this. It would depend on the topic. I'm sure there's a lot of things that we agree on. No hard feelings, because I realize that people see things different.
This is just one more thread where I was blamed for everything, but I'm used to it by now. If I took it serious, I would have left AP long ago.
Let's just keep saying what we believe in and remain friends. Smile
09-12-03, 06:27 AM clarebear Peace. Smile
09-12-03, 10:51 AM aminator2002 Why does honilov always ignore my analogies...?
I do not rest so easy on the point that honilov has some deep rooted problem with all gays based on an single isolated experience... I think that is very wrong.
This is the second time my post to honilov has been completely ignored in a thread... I wonder if I've gone invisible. Confused
09-12-03, 12:46 PM honilov Aminator, I'm not ignoring your posts, it's just that yours are not as harsh as some of the others. I just feel like I need to defend some of these posts more than others. Even if I don't respond to yours, I still take it to heart and appreciate your input whether I agree or not.
It always seems like my posts are always opposite of most people, but really, I am a very good person. I guess it can't be seen with just writing. I actually believe there are others here that think like me, but won't speak up.
So Aminator, just keep responding to me, because I'll respect whatever you say. No hard feelings at all. If there is another Gay topic in the future, I'll refrain from responding because there are plenty other threads here that I can respond to. Smile
09-12-03, 01:33 PM Georgia85 Honi - I totally understood your comment regarding lesbians based on that one circumstance. And I understand why you feel the way you do. And I also see a difference between your real life experience and Clare's analogy (no offense Clare) There is a big difference in the emminent threat of a female making a move on another female who is heterosexual....and having someone offer you drugs or snatching your purse. That's how I see it at least.
Of course what has happened is that you have stereo-typed lesbians based on that occurance. But that is your perogative and if you feel uneasy around them that certainly is your perogative as well.
09-12-03, 01:51 PM methos 'eminent threat' Georgia - I'm just curious (along the lines of ami's comments), do you feel that there is an 'eminent threat' of men 'making a move' on you?
09-12-03, 02:09 PM Georgia85 I only wish I were that lucky Methos! Big Grin
09-12-03, 06:19 PM aminator2002 Honilov... it is not about me thinking you are a bad person. I don't see you as a bad person and that's why I waste all this time typing responses to you. I'm sure DavidStwrt doesn't think you are a bad person either and he has spent a lot of time discussing these issues with you. I think you may have even changed your mind about a thing or two while this is going on.
There is no doubt that I think you are wrong in generalizing all lesbians by one experience but I do not generalize your entire character by that one area that I differ with you.
I posted here because I felt you misunderstood what clare's post intended to show... a similarity between you generalizing all lesbians and white people who generalize all blacks based on one bad encounter. I feel that you did not try to understand that clare wasn't saying that she thought all black people were one way or another, but using an example to illustrate the point that stereotyping people is wrong.
Her example was just that... not a statement of her beliefs but an exageration to get a point across. I'm still thinking you don't understand that.
As far as Georgia's post...Of course it's your perogative to stereotype people if you want to, but I will continue to be here saying it's wrong.
If we can't air our differences in a civil manner on a message board then there is no hope, right? Please keep posting, but also keep an open mind about what others are saying... nobody here is out to "get" anybody else. Just exchanging ideas.
09-13-03, 08:02 AM DvdGStwrt Now, Now Kids, Ya Young'uns are all alike, picking and choosing to hear what the other is tellin ya.
Let old Uncle David make it clear, I seriously find fault with the notion that because one person does a thing wrong that a whole group of people are wrong too.
EXAMPLES of Group Classifications: AKA Stereo-typing:
Hitler was German, Hitler hated jews - ERGO all Germans Hate Jews.
Tom O'Shea is Irish, Tom Drinks Ergo all Irish are Alcoholics.
Father ____ is a Priest, He molested a Boy - All Priests are molesters.
Stereotypes are caused by ill conceived notions that stem from a grain of truth.
Honilov, in this instance the grain of truth is that you had a bad experience with one lesbian. From that experience you came away with a shyness of lesbians.
I can not blame you on that. I'm sorry that you had that experience, I can only pray that you will meet a nice lesbian girl who will show you through her actions that not all lesbians are that way.
Personally I try very, very hard to measure a person by their own worth as an individual. No, I'm not perfect at it, but I try.
Those Labels that the conversation opened with, those are Stereotypes as well.
I suppose in a perfect world we would know everyone's name and we would not have to force every person into a category.
But we do not live in a perfect world - not yet, we will get there, in a little while.
Honilov, I seriously doubt that You meant what you said as a personal attack, you stated a fact of happening.
Clarebear meant hers as an EXAMPLE of the kind of thinking that yours APPEARS to be. She used a common myth about black people to drive her point home. I seriously doubt that she believes it in any way shape or form.
I can only hope that if I ever make a slur against any group of people that Clarebare, or Honilov Or Methos or anyone here will slap me in the face with a Gay, White Male, Scotch/Irish American Analogy to wake me up to the reality of my mental state.
And that's the way it is.
Cheers
David
09-13-03, 12:14 PM honilov Yeah David. Now, I hope you, Clare, Aminator, and Methos are my friends again. Smile
Georgia, thanks for your understanding. Wink
David, did you ignore your private topic? Confused
09-25-03, 11:33 AM DvdGStwrt
quote:Originally posted by honilov: Yeah David. Now, I hope you, Clare, Aminator, and Methos are my friends again. Smile
Georgia, thanks for your understanding. Wink
David, did you ignore your private topic? Confused
I am not informed when I get private topics - Odd. I occasionally wander in that direction and then I am pleasantly surprised to find that one or two people have willingly entered into private conversation with me (How on earth anyone would willingly want me to write to them is beyond me, I do know that I do not know when to stop writing.
Which, in your case I have written back, several times, however I allowed myself to write a novella or two LOL
I did send a reply.
And on the record I am not angry, upset or in anyway not your friend over this subject.
Though I may appear to be short tempered in my posts - it is usually not the case Big Grin
Cheers
David
09-28-03, 09:10 AM soaringhorse Okay, I have read all the post here, and am still confused. Maybe someone can enlighten me, I understand the stereotypes of gays and lesbians, but what about bi-sexual. Does that get confusing? The reason I ask is I have a sister that had at one time announced she was gay, but then states she is bi-sexual. So what I have seen is a lot of fights, dealing with her relations. They can't seem to get along, and alot of times it gets pretty ugly. Now my question is: Is it because they are not sure if they want to love women, or men? So that throws a bolt in the works, wouldn't you say?
09-28-03, 12:28 PM DvdGStwrt Soaringhorse:
Sexuality is not black and white. In fact if we were able to poll everyone on earth accurately we would find that about 5% are Strict Heterosexuals, unable and unwilling to even consider the notion of having sex with the same gender - and 5% would be strict homosexuals unable and unwilling to even consider having sex with the opposite gender.
The rest of us would fall into the infinite Shades of Grey of 'bisexuality'.
There have been two occasions in my life where I have met really "hot" women - Both of whom I would have gone to bed with in a heart beat - Though Dave Jr woke up and was willing, Dave Sr's heart was not very much into the notion of a long term committed relationship with these attractive ladies.
I know others who will admit that they have met the other side and have been interested - very interested at times - to explore the sexuality, but there was no confusing on what they are looking for emotionally or relationship wise.
This is the fringes of the grey area - Though we may be able to perform sexually with either gender we will tend to stick with our gender of choice because we are not attracted in an emotional manner to the other.
Bisexuals - Out and out bisexuals, fall much closer to the middle of this grey area - They are (in most cases) not only willing and able to perform sexually with either gender, but are also able and willing to form committed long term relationships with either gender.
Though our society is more accepting of homosexuality we are still biased in our understanding of sexuality and we still insist on shoving people into one or the other category.
There are plenty of gay folk out there who will not even entertain the notion of entertaining a bisexual - This is kind of odd behavior considering that homosexuals are persecuted for the way they swing - one would think that the homosexuals would be more accepting.
The bisexual may appear (on the surface) to switch rolls, first being Straight, then gay, then straight again - they may even say that they are one or the other (depending on who they are dating at the time) This can be due to the pressures of which ever group they are with at the time - Meaning if they are dating or in a gay relationship they will call themselves gay in order to fit in. If they are dating heterosexually, then they will call themselves straight again to fit in.
Since no man can see nor understand fully the heart of another, we will always base what we know on what we see, most of us are unwilling (or perhaps unable) to consider that a person is far more than the surface.
Gender is considered to be remarked differences by the majority. Our whole society has these silly notions of Male/Female rolls - so silly in fact that we have to program these notions right from the start by assigning colours to the nursery to reflect the gender (Pink for Girls, blue for boys). Women wear dresses, are allowed to lie about their age by hiding those tell tale signs with make-up, they are seen as being the 'weaker' sex, etc. Men on the other hand must wear pants, are ridiculed if they try to hide those signs of age and are considered the 'stronger' sex.
For the bisexual they see both genders as equal (on one level or another) and are able to form a lasting bond with either gender. Most bi-sexuals are at ease with entering a relationship with either gender able to see the benefits of both.
And this is where the difference really comes in.
We assume that sexuality is the key to our understanding of sexuality. That can not be farthest from the truth. Sex is fleeting, sex is only the primer for the pumps that get relationships (love relationships) started. Sexual attraction may play a big roll in getting us motivated to meet people, however after meeting The One, we find that sex after a while begins to take second, third, fourth, etc place to other features of relationships, such as love, commitment, and the union of two in daily life.
Love is the key.
Through the thousands of years of human history many have expounded on that subject we are no closer to revealing the truth of what love is. Poets have attempted to define it, Philosophers have attempted to fit it into the scheme of things, Science has attempted to give it chemical and physical cause, Theology has tried to contain it, explain it and to one degree or another dictate how it should be and who should do it.
Love is the riddle with no simple single answer. Love is blind, love is unable to fit into one set set of rules, Love ignores Wars, Famines, history, Expectations and will even snub it's nose at genders, race, class, religion, heritage and age and all the labels created by man to define the differences we suppose is there.
This is not to say that there are those out there who do not see sex as the prize - There are way too many who do. This is in part caused by our myth-understandings of Love. We see the destruction of relationships all the time, these fail not because either or both parties are not relationship material. We see these relationships end because not many people know and understand that relationships are based on an emotion which evolves and changes as time wears on.
I do not know why her relationships leads to strife - I can only assume it is jealousy rearing it's ugly head.
I think we all have that beast buried within - I will admit right here there are times when I feel it stirring when my partner is getting along with a potential 'threat' to my position in his life. Though I know on an intellectual level that he won't act on any impulses, my heart says differently.
For her partners they may see everyone as a potential threat - That kind of stress may be harder to cope with than just having to worry about one gender. It may be more difficult that we think since in straight relationships a woman can have girlfriends (Female friends) who she can hang out with them without hubby getting miffed, and hubby can hang out with the boys - in gay relationships one partner can hang out with the other gender with no issues, or even hang out with the straights (since most gays would never, ever engage in sex with a 'straight' person) without there being a 'problem'.
But for the bisexual they are stuck in this catch 22 - especially if they have a known history of having had lovers of both genders.
All people become a threat and there are no 'safe' groups that one can play with without the other in the relationship becoming doubtful. This is another reason why a person will change their own label, picking hetero or homosexuality when in a relationship of either one - just to remove that doubt (or attempt to remove that doubt).
Your sister is stuck in this catch-22 no matter which gender she may strike up a relationship with, thus the apparent confusion on her behalf. I doubt she is confused at all and I think that if you talked with her you would discover that she is not seeking two people to be with but only one -The One who for her can be of either gender, but must be a true love interest, one that she can bond with and form a deep, committed relationship with - one person who she knows she will be waking up with in the morning.
For her she is not bouncing back and forth between genders. She is not trying on different gloves - she may not see a difference between potential love interests based on gender - Like the guy who can date red heads, blonds and brunettes, for her gender is as important as hair colour that is to say not that important.
Cheers
David
09-28-03, 06:01 PM soaringhorse Thank you for explaining that for me, David. I wish I could talk with her, but as it goes we can not communicate, too many harsh words have been thrown at me. I have tried and tried to take her for what she is, but the accusations she sends my way are just too painful. I just think she wants to be loved, period. I think that's really all of us want, and I guess I'm lucky to have someone to love and that I love so strongly. It just seems that words are said so quickly sometimes, that they are not even thought out before they are said.
09-28-03, 08:32 PM DvdGStwrt
quote:Originally posted by soaringhorse: Thank you for explaining that for me, David. I wish I could talk with her, but as it goes we can not communicate, too many harsh words have been thrown at me. I have tried and tried to take her for what she is, but the accusations she sends my way are just too painful. I just think she wants to be loved, period. I think that's really all of us want, and I guess I'm lucky to have someone to love and that I love so strongly. It just seems that words are said so quickly sometimes, that they are not even thought out before they are said.
I'm sorry to hear that. Time heals - in time.
Peace to both of you.
David
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
Posts: 6715 | Location: Land of Lincoln, USA | Registered: 07-04-02
