My Nieces are calling every thing that is negative Gay. "Oh that's so gay!" They tell me that they Love me and Uncle Danny (My Partner). But I have yet to hear them use "That's so Gay" in a positive way.

My President, although not having any problem legalizing the sex part (Sodomy Laws be gone) he does have a problem with the marriage part.

Then when I say I want to marry out of love, it is reduced to sex. But the Sex is now Legal (my love is not). As Scotty points out “…the Homosexual act makes me sick to my stomach, and disgusts me to even think about what these perverts do.” While at the same time saying: “You can love who ever you want.” Now I am confused.

I'm told that God So loved the World he Sent is Only Son to die for all men - While on the other hand homosexuals are going hell and God Hates Fags.

I get treated like a human being by the minority.

The Majority continue to rally behind myths and legends to justify saying things like "Homosexuality is on par to Child Molestation." "God hates Fags." "Your going to hell." "Gays can't possibly love" "The problem is not your being gay, the problem is you have gay sex."

This conflicting information gives me a headache.

Aside from all of that I can look the man in the Mirror I have respect for that man who, although gay, has consistently stood up for the rights of others, has shown compassion to the plight of the downtrodden and abused. It is in my very nature despite the fact I was raised by two people who found hatred of others to be the best life plan and who both couldn't hide their hatred of me because I am gay. Bigotry takes no hostages and in the Bigot's house even their own children are items to be judged and hated when ever possible.

In spite of the negative, the warriors of Right who continually attempt to bring me down and make me feel less than them. I have come to their aid time and time again.

They may have NOT been aware that some fagot just changed their tire, put a gallon of gas in their tank, put a jacket on their backs, just fed them, just visited them in hospital, prison, or all of the other countless atrocities I have visited upon them - random acts of kindness which was received without question of my sexuality. They accepted it without first asking me if I am gay. I didn't ask if they were a bigot either.

Case in Point: The little Old Lady who hired me to do those small things that the elderly can not do. On the one hand I continue to do random small things "free of charge" because, lets face it she old, she is on a limited budget and it would be wrong for me to charge her for every little thing. Yet on the other she stands there and tells me how pleased she is that Bush is dealing with those homosexuals who threaten the fabric of American society. I have worked for her nearly a year, biting my tongue whenever she opens her mouth to tell me her opinion on those Homosexuals. I take it and I say not a word NOT because I need her money, but because I respect her age and have been under the impression that she needs me even if she despises me. I was told that this is the correct way to go. I have rarely been shown that however.

She thinks I am the best thing since sliced bread - I, David, one of those homosexuals who are destroying the fabric of American society. The one few handy men who hasn’t taken her for a ride. But then she didn’t know that I’m gay.

I have met and worked for many people who (not knowing that I'm gay) will tell me their opinion on the Gay problem and who justify their hatred while thinking that I, a gay male who they don't know is gay, is one of the best employees, best "Friend" they have ever had. I never ask, but they give me their opinion of Me and My People - I don't ask, but they sure do love to tell.

I allowed them the delusion they were my "Friend" I ground my teeth and said nothing, for Peace's Sake.

Peace is far over rated and undeserved really.

I have to wonder just how many gay people are in the lives of those who condemn homosexuality and don't say a single thing when that bigot spouts off his or her opinion of those homosexuals while thinking that the homosexual standing right next to them is a good person. How Many gays and Lesbians do you suppose sit there and take it day after day, being told the bigot’s point of view on a subject that that Gay or Lesbian didn't even ask to hear an opinion on?

How many times have I heard those words of hatred uttered by some stranger on the street and bit my tongue knowing that silence is the better part of virtue? So easily the words of condemnation roll off the tongues of those who condemn, but so hard it is for me to stand up and say "Your wrong!"

What price Peace? The price of my sanity, my stomach (ulcers) My bleeding tongue which I bite over and over again to keep from saying anything that may cause a "scene"? What Price for peace in the Work place, in the public places does the bigot have To pay?

None - after all it is right and just to stand up and tell all of the world just how bad fags are. How disgusting we are, How God, Nature, Man and all that right in the world our kind are.

When faced with the scratched "Faggot" on the side of my truck, I pulled out the paint and painted over it, then went to the rear of my truck and took off the rainbow flag. I shed a few tears, but did not go to the Police, Did not make a scene - I conceded the battle peacefully. For the Sake of Peace I swallowed my Pride and tears.

When on one 4th of July I flew my rainbow flag my neighbor down and across the street came over and "asked" (ordered really) me to take it down. I did, to save from having an argument. Is this understood to be wrong by the bigot who made his demand that he took away my right to do what I damn well please in my own yard? No. But he will.

This will not do.

Today I called that Little old Bigoted Bitty and I told her that I'm gay and that I can not do any work for a known gay hater. I do not want her money, I will not work for her, I think that she needs to find another handy man - And trust me, most handymen will take her for as much as they can, leaving shoddy craftsmanship and using the cheapest materials while charging high prices.

I went through my list of clients and separated them into three lists. Tolerant and Non Tolerant and Unknowns(I will be asking the next time I see them). There was a few who, unasked already handed me their opinion on the Gay issue. I called everyone on the non-tolerant list and explained to them that I am gay and I fear that as a gay male I know they do not need me working for them.

Out of the list of 6, only one said that they didn't care and that they would like for me to continue working for them.

I liberated myself from them, their money and most importantly their opinion. I bet that tonight 6 people are still wondering what happened. I wonder who would be shocked to receive a phone call and being told that do to their bigotries that they are being dropped as a client in future? I'm no longer taking prisoners.

I maintain the right to refuse service to anyone.

I explained to him that I couldn't for as a gay man I can not see my way to understand or tolerate bigotry. And having made it quite clear to me, unasked, his take on the Gay issue it is obvious to me that we could not do business fairly or peacefully.

In one hour I reduced my client list and my monthly income by half.

I will no longer lower myself to work for or do business with known bigots. I can't swallow my pride and "make peace" through ignoring their bias, their hatred any longer. That includes all bigots - One bigoted remark will be enough to know where that person stands. I will be swift to judge, condemn and execute in all business manners. If I am in the middle of a huge job and I hear one hint of bigotry against any group of people – I’m out of there. I will show no mercy - even if I never earn another dime for as long as I live.

This Afternoon I put two Rainbow flags on My truck, one on the front, one the rear - Everyone will see I'm gay coming and going. And if I ever catch any SOB keying my truck again I will beat the crap out of them and enjoy every single minute of it. I will not remove those stickers again. They may beat me, they may wreck my property, they may even kill me. I will not be moved to cow before them again.

If it happens again I will not only call the police, I will call a PI and I will have the criminal uncovered no matter the cost. I will prosecute to the fullest extent of the law. No more Mr. Nice Guy.

Oh sure, they may not tolerate my being gay, but It's illegal to deface a persons property. Hate Crime Laws are my new best friends. I will use them every single chance I get.

I raised my Gay flag as well, I'm sitting here waiting for my neighbor to come home from work. And when he comes over to "ask" me to take it down, I must wonder if my refusal to comply will lead to blows. Today I am not only ready for physical fight, I look forward to it. I refuse to comply with his wants and needs. I own that flag pole that is on the property I pay rent on. Unless he wants to take over paying my rent, he has no right to tell me what I can and can not fly in the way of a flag on MY flag pole. Another opportunity to use the Hate Crime Laws may open up tonight.

I will not be moved to hide or please the sensibilities of a man who can only talk to me to order me to remove a rainbow flag. Not once in the 6 years have I been here has he said boo to me. But he did come over to ask (order) me to take down my flag. That is his right, he doesn't have to talk to me. But it is my right to hang as many gay flags in my yard as I want to.

He had the right to put up three Yes on Prop "No Gay Marriages" in his lawn. I didn't stop him. I didn't go over there and "ask" him to take those down.

I will not be told what to do any longer.

I will measure out my helping hand to those who meet my standards of right and wrong. Bigots will be routed. They dislike me for being gay – fine. Let them find a Straight person to help them in their hour of need.

I told my nieces that until they stop using "Gay" in a negative manner, not to bother calling me for rides in the middle of the night, not to bother asking me to fix anything, not to even bother borrowing my car, my truck or $5.00. Oh they hated that but I have to be strong in my convictions, as I have been taught by those who have shown strong convictions when it comes to my sexuality.

This is how I spent my day, correcting the many errors that I have allowed to continue.

And what caused this sudden change? About 30 years of unconcealed hatred of me and my kind. The words have stung and the Lines were drawn well before I even knew I was gay. The Clips and Phrases and outright condemnation has been served to me time and time again I have nicely chewed on every single word and swallowed. I have been abused, mistreated and have even been beaten unconscious by those self righteous individuals who have never recanted once or said "I'm sorry to have hurt you."

As far as I'm concerned the issue closed. I no longer will argue or debate the Gay Question.

As far as I'm concerned this particular board is for two purposes. A place for me to answer honest questions about being gay, and a useful tool for me to learn who is and is not tolerant.

I'm not going to waste my fingers on explaining over and over again that though gay I do love and honor my partner and that I am am Gay and gays are much more than just an act of sex. I look at it this way, I have made that clear and if anyone still can't see it then they are purposefully blinding themselves to it and have a serious problem which I can not help them with. If you can't see me beyond a sex act, then I have no right to see a person behind the unleashed condemnation that anyone gives me.


If we should meet in person, and I find your a bigot, please not expect me to treat you with anything but contempt. Bigotry, unlike homosexuality, is a choice. It os a behavior born of ignorance and willful intent to cause harm. I can not condone that in any way shape or form. I will not take it any more.

Cheers

David
*******************************************************
04-21-04, 10:55 PM
Sarai
David, I feel certain that gay marriages will become legal in our lifetime. I'm sure you have encountered a lot of prejudice, but I hope you also see how much and how rapidly our society is learning and changing with regard to sexuality. Soon, we will all be one gay country ("gay" as in "happy" - just thought I'd use the word in a positive way. Smile ).

04-22-04, 04:18 AM
DvdGStwrt
Sarai,

At the end of this very month I will 38 years old. Half my life is more or less over. We are running out of time here. I have waited patiently for this to happen. I have run out of patience. I'm tired of waiting. Not just for the right to marry a man, but I am tired of waiting for the rest of humanity to wake up to the fact that we are all different while all being cast in the same mold.

Oh sure, there have been the concessions. These are not freely given, it has taken countless lawyers finding loop holes in the laws to get them. But still, every single day we hear those lovely words of hate being screamed or whispered in every county, state and city and town. Those messages have broken through and my patience has ran out. The time of action is at hand.

Where ever humans gather, there is at least one bigot amongst them.

Granted, when I was born the United States of America was in the middle of its Civil Rights movement, but still today people tremble with fear when a lone black man enters the store, Still today we call those who come to America "Spics" or "illegals" as if our ancestors really had any right to enter this land. I think that the only people allowed to bear the title "American" are the native Americans. The rest of us? Maybe we should stick to Immigrant Americans. That might keep us in our proper place.

The Media are a den of mischievous hate mongers. Watch them and listen, I mean really listen when the news caster talks about the "suspect" Keep score, how many times when a white male commits a crime is the phrase 'white man/male/suspect" used. Now in order to get a whiff of what is really being done, count the times we are reminded when the suspect is black that they are black. Be fair about it too, I was. Make a score pad and keep score for a week. Count up the ticks in each column.

I'll bet you that the black suspect gets reported as being black more times than the white gets reported as white.

Maybe it is just a subconscious blunder on the behalf of the news casters at station 3, Well try station 4, or 5 or 10.

38 years Sarai. That is such a long time.

When Timothy Mc Veigh did his horror show, were we reminded every day that he was a White Christian Terrorist? No. But when 9-11 befell us we have a different story 3 years later we are reminded of the Muslim Terrorist. Why the importance to point out the Muslim part, and no importance to point out the White Christian? Why is it that a White Christan Terrorist is given the respect of use of his name, while the Muslim Terrorists remain Muslim Terrorists. Why is that do you suppose. It wouldn't be bigotry would it?

That point may be missed by many, let me make that clearer. If you are anything but white, your race will be used against you in the media to promote racial fear.


And we wonder why the white man trembles in fear when he sees a lone black man enter the convenience store late at night. It wouldn't be brain washing would it?

Yes I was born during the most gallant fight for freedom that America ever saw, but let me tell you that war was not won by the right people, it was won by the bigots. We were mislead into believing that the right people won. That war ended just a little too soon.

No, this is far more than my being gay, far more than Gay Marriage. Those are useful tools for me to launch my new platform, a good reason for me to take stock and plan my next systematic attacks on the bigots of America and eventually the World. Even if George W. Bush comes to my very door step tomorrow morning and tells me I may marry the man I love - its too late. My mind is made up, and as a Taurus I can assure you that though I have a long patient streak which can extend for years, the dark to that is when I make up my mind I can be very, very stubborn. I am stubbornly planing on doing something about bigotry. Because even if I'm allowed to marry my man, the bigotry will remain. Bigotry is the problem here.

I have a plan. It will cost me a pretty penny to start up the machine of propaganda, but it will be done. The gay thing is just a minor cog in the machine.
The big thing, the important thing is to bring bigotry to a halt. It has taken nearly 38 years for me to to get my fill. I now see very clearly what must be done.


And that, Sarai. Is my message.

04-22-04, 08:41 AM
Lydia
David!! Good on you!!!!!!! While you may have lost some business and some income, I have no doubt that you have just given yourself back your self-respect. For you to be able to not hide who and what you are and not to have to put up with the hateful remarks these people have made to, you'll keep you from bottling up the feeling of resentment that you had for these people. I could hear the sigh of relief you must have felt - a "liberation" of sorts. You are a very caring and sensitive man and I think that your partner likely knows just how very lucky he is.

Through your posts, you've given me a perspective that I would never have gotten anywhere else and for that I thank you. I've often read your posts and wondered why you took the crap from people that you did...and now you're not going to anymore...to repeat GOOD ON YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

04-22-04, 09:18 AM
MrsS
David, I am so bloody proud of you! You brought tears to my eyes by taking your truth back into your own hands...I could say much more, maybe even respond point by point, but anything I could say would boil down to the simple fact that I am proud to share this planet with such as yourself.

I will comment on your nieces...Good for you for making it clear that the word "gay" is not acceptable slang for something messed up, broken or disliked....I, just the other day, had to explain to a young co-worker that I found it offensive and ask that out of respect for me she not use it in my hearing....In Montana, it was a rather new idea for the girl (bright as a penny and generally quite nice) that with no malice aforethought, a word could offend....I was grateful and impressed at how well she took it.

Again, David, thanks for ...being.

04-22-04, 09:59 AM
Texan-In-Exile
Ah David - if only I had your guts and your zeal!
I applaud you - best of luck!

That little old lady/bigot isn't the only one you've helped - you've helped us countless times!
And I'm glad you're here! Smile

I see your point about reporting "black" suspects. I've noticed before when a reporter would say "a white male" because it's not the norm - but it is becoming more common.
I think race is pointed out when a suspect is of a "minority."
But around here, there are almost as many blacks as whites, so it would make sense to point out any person's race.

I don't think "a white Christian terrorist" is used when referring to McVeigh because "white Christians" (or any true Christians), as a whole, aren't usually known for their terror tactics against America; while many Muslims have shown hatred for our nation.
McVeigh was one person; there were many who carried out the 9-11 attack.
While Muslims in general shouldn't be blamed, labelling the terrorists continues because the attacks were politically and likely religiously motivated.

Just my thoughts there...

As for bigotry, having been fat most of my life, I can tell you that prejudice isn't just relegated to race or sexual orientation. Roll Eyes
It may not be on the same scale, but it can still get pretty nasty!
An ideal world would not include prejudice.

However, I am not one of those persons who can't wait until everyone on Earth is of one blended race; or who wants everyone to be of the same mind.
Rather - I believe we should celebrate our diversity and learn from each other.
Just think how enriching this would be! Big Grin
(If only, huh?)

And Cheers to you, David! Smile

PS - I know what you mean about kids saying "Oh that's so gay!"
But don't feel bad - mentally challenged people's ears are burning too! ("Oh that's so retarded!") Roll Eyes

04-22-04, 11:00 AM
Sarai

quote:Originally posted by DvdGStwrt:
And that, Sarai. Is my message.

Best of luck to you, David. It's the right message.

04-22-04, 11:18 AM
methos
Change comes far too slow, but it will come. Personal experience and surveys of public opinion show me that younger Americans are more accepting of homosexuality and same-sex marriage (there are, of course, exceptions such as our octogenarian). I tend to think part of this is familiarity, far from breeding contempt, has increased tolerance. There are more openly gay youths now than in the past. Similarly, regarding Tex’s post, no one would dare use retarded as an insulting term in my family due to my Uncle, who had Down’s syndrome, and some of my friends have quickly found that I won’t tolerate them using it either. I’d be surprised if someone didn’t post saying they know a lot of homosexuals and are still against gay marriage, but I don’t mean this as a universal rule, only a generality. I think that the best thing that homosexuals can do to combat bigotry in the long run is to be open about who they are.

Unfortunately, the short run isn’t so simple. I don’t think that I will see a day when bigotry is wiped out, but I do believe that I will see a day when the law is cleansed of it, and I am hopeful that David will as well. I think that we are seeing and are going to continue to see progress. Unfortunately, progress in the law can prompt backlash in opinion, causing further progress to slow, or even reverse. This was true in the civil right’s movement, and continues to be true today. Polls show that opposition to same-sex marriage rose following the recent court ruling on sodomy, and, after the Massachusetts ruling on same-sex marriage, the Bush administration reversed its position (once that this is an issue for the states) by endorsing an amendment to prevent states from allowing such marriages.

To end on a high note of a small victory, Phelps (the author of the web site David linked to) threatened trouble at a local performance of The Laramie Project. In the end, not one protester showed up, but a large crowd held a peaceful vigil supporting tolerance, and the play was a success.


Cheers

Mike

04-22-04, 01:06 PM
clarebear
David,

I think it is good that you are finally standing up for what you believe in. While it is important to be true to yourself, you should not be foolish and put yourself in dangerous situations just to make a point. I know you have a lot of anger bottled up inside of you and you have been repressed for a long time. You can't fight the whole world. Be smart about it. Every potential argument isn't worth fighting. Pick your battles wisely.

I think it will take some research on your part to know what you can change and what you can not. I think you can make a difference... and I know you will. I support you my friend. Smile



P.S. I'm straight but not narrow! Smile

04-22-04, 01:30 PM
Scotty
David , I have no doubt that you are a fine person , and you probably work hard to earn a living as a handyman. I want you to know that I do not hate you , but I truly believe the homosexual act is not natural and is against Gods law. I am in no way trying to put you down as a human being , and I don't think that people should treat you any differently than anyone else.

I really am sorry that ignorant people shy away from you and insult you , you certainly do not deserve that. I am the type of person that can hate the sin but not the sinner. I am not a bible thumper , but I do believe in God ,and try to live my life in the right way.

I have to be honest with you though , I do not think that homosexuals should be allowed to marry. I believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman. I think that was the way it was intended to be. Best of luck to you ,keep straight. Big Grin Kidding.

04-22-04, 04:28 PM
honilov
Well David, you know from past issues that you've taught me a lot about hiding from reality. You know how I used to feel about Gays and that was because I had very little understanding about them. You made me understand, and I thank you. It was you that made me see that even tho I'm straight, I was almost in the same situation as you, but just with a different twist. Heck with the world...we are all humans. I've learned a lot from you and respect you to the fullest.

By the way, I had no idea what a rainbow flag meant. I'm still learning from you.

04-22-04, 06:34 PM
MrsS
Speaking of the Rainbow Flag, Gilbert, the artist who created the mile long flag for Pride Day years ago, is hard at work on another flag...this one to be five miles long when complete!Smile

04-23-04, 02:03 AM
puppyblues
Wow. I can't say much more then the women of AP have already said. You are an amazing man, David, and I'm glad to share the earth with someone like you.

I love that your sick enough of it to actually DO something about it. Too often people sit and gripe or groan about something their entire lives, only to die having done not one thing about it. I'm glad you are now going to step up and DO something about it.
If there is ANY WAY that I can help with what you are doing, please tell me. I'd be happy to do whatever it takes to rid the world of bigots.

04-23-04, 12:39 PM
jusork

quote:Originally posted by puppyblues:
I can't say much more then the women of AP have already said.

But, Pup, Methos is a man. Wink

Pretty much ditto. It's hard to imagine all the trouble you've had. I hope (and believe it's highly likely) that you'll be able to experience a world of equal respect for gays in the majority. We're almost there.

04-23-04, 03:52 PM
K.K.
David,

I am not gay. I am not tolerant of gay people, neither am I intolerant. It is a lifestyle choice and it is yours to make. I have opinions, but unlike the seething hatred I know you have had to deal with all this time, it will not harm me mentally or morally to keep these opinions to myself.

I just wanted to touch on a couple of points if I may.

I commend your decision to draw a line. I do not say this because it is a 'gay line' you are drawing, but a line of conviction. Those who meander through life failing to draw these self declared boundaries about the conditions they allow themselves to live under, go through life less than happy in my estimation. It is never universally popular to stand up for what you believe is right. There is always a wall of opposition. However, no matter what the outcome of your 'casting the line', you will be able to live with what you have done.

My second point, is, that the reason the gay marriage thing is not going to fly YET, is simply money. Insurance companies are not prepared to deal with a group with a high risk for ongoing medical expenses that can be linked to lifestyle choices. NASCAR drivers probably have a hard time getting group insurance. Employers bigoted or not, do not want to gain a new set of obligatory circumstances which may impede their cash flow. The government certainly sees pressure at various levels from insurance providers to keep gay marriages from being legally recognized. When it is no longer profitable (to the powers that be) to prohibit the union of gay persons, it will be made into law.
I wish you much luck and happiness in your life. I am sure you realize that you have a 'tough row to hoe' ahead of you, but as I said, conviction is a rock and you will be happy you set those in your world straight. Smile

04-23-04, 06:56 PM
frankvan
I am also not gay, but I think that the idea that one chooses whether to follow a gay or a straight lifestyle is utter nonsense. Everyone who chose his/her heterosexual lifestyle, please raise your hands. Wink

04-23-04, 07:40 PM
K.K.

quote:Originally posted by frankvan:
I am also not gay, but I think that the idea that one _chooses_ whether to follow a gay or a straight lifestyle is utter nonsense. Everyone who _chose_ his/her heterosexual lifestyle, please raise your hands. Wink


I could go both ways myself Frank. Tim Curry proved that to me when I was a teen.
I haven't for the same reasons I refused to discuss above, but the thought has sure as hell crossed my mind and I am not afraid to say that. But I choose to be heterosexual. So far.

I am close to a couple of different families who have a parent who was heterosexual for years and 'became gay'. If that isn't a choice I do not know what is.

I find it interesting that you focused in on a single word in the post. But, different strokes, I guess.. Smile

04-24-04, 09:04 AM
frankvan
Hugh, I agree that we all have bi-sexual potential. Prison populations tend to bear that out. But the heterosexual urges appear dominant in the majority of humans. That being the case, it ceases to be strictly a matter of choice, but simply a much more difficult choice for those who suffer discrimination as a result of being in a minority. Wouldn't you agree? Should we take pride in making the easy choices? In sixty years of monogamous, straight marriage, I can't say it has been terribly difficult for me.

04-24-04, 09:36 AM
K.K.
I can agree to that Frankvan, but I doubt that any insurance company that would instantly 'inherit' a slew of new insurable 'partners' would agree. And that was the point I was illustrating when I used the word 'choice'.

They would cite the same types of scenarios I did, and it would go on and on, and of course all the while a finger would point to Washington D.C., merely a diversion but it will be pointed nonetheless.

04-24-04, 09:37 AM
clarebear
I choose to be heterosexual. I don't have a desire to be with a female sexually. I can and do appreciate the beauty of other females. To be honest, it is hard not to look and I'm straight. (that does not mean I want to do them) Females are very beautiful to look at and I have perfected comparing myself to some of them. What better way to get some tips that see what someone else is doing! I just have no desire to be with a female sexually. I am a breeder! Funny story. A friend of mine was being pressured by her boyfriend to bring another girl home with them. She ended up leaving her boyfriend for the girl! I swear this is true. She is gay to this day. (If I ever chose to walk the fence it surely would be with her! She made me promise. LOL) I have said it before and I will say it again. I am strickly dickly! Smile

*raises hand*

04-24-04, 11:54 AM
DvdGStwrt

quote:Originally posted by Hugh:
David,
I am not gay. I am not tolerant of gay people, neither am I intolerant. It is a lifestyle choice and it is yours to make. I have opinions, but unlike the seething hatred I know you have had to deal with all this time, it will not harm me mentally or morally to keep these opinions to myself.



That is all I ask is just a little respect to not be shared the details of your opinion, especially if you hire me to do a job and then hang out to tell me your take on the virtue of anything. There are many out there who are quick to share their opinion on things, and they take no pause to use some pretty nasty words.

quote: I just wanted to touch on a couple of points if I may.

I commend your decision to draw a line. I do not say this because it is a 'gay line' you are drawing, but a line of conviction. Those who meander through life failing to draw these self declared boundaries about the conditions they allow themselves to live under, go through life less than happy in my estimation. It is never universally popular to stand up for what you believe is right. There is always a wall of opposition. However, no matter what the outcome of your 'casting the line', you will be able to live with what you have done.



Your are right, this goes far beyond just "gay" things, this is and always has been a matter of respect, I tend to have confused self respect to having to take second class seating in the road of life to the respect of others. I have tended to allow or condone or through my actions have shown the world that it is ok to strip people down and stack them into categories depending upon things that are not important when it comes to the measure of human worth.

Through my silence, through my allowance of others to express their dislike of any group or kind of people through the use of "negative" words, I have disrespected those people. How many times have I heard "Beach Whale!" screamed in public and kept my mouth closed not wanting to cause a "scene" while the person it was screamed at suffered the same embarrassment, the same hurt, the same pain I suffer when someone screams out "fag!"?

I by no means want to stop anyone from having an opinion, I would however like to point out that certain opinions should be kept to oneself. After all I never ever publicly condemn those who eat Grape Jelly, though the habit disgusts me to no end Wink.


quote: My second point, is, that the reason the gay marriage thing is not going to fly YET, is simply money. Insurance companies are not prepared to deal with a group with a high risk for ongoing medical expenses that can be linked to lifestyle choices. NASCAR drivers probably have a hard time getting group insurance. Employers bigoted or not, do not want to gain a new set of obligatory circumstances which may impede their cash flow. The government certainly sees pressure at various levels from insurance providers to keep gay marriages from being legally recognized. When it is no longer profitable (to the powers that be) to prohibit the union of gay persons, it will be made into law.



Medical insurance issue is being turned slowly. For instance Danny and I are both now) finally on his medical carrier. His Company switched carriers and also had a big shake up to allow domestic partners to be insured medically. Though the insurer itself allowed Domestic Partners for a while (even promoted it in their Advocate Ads to make money from the GLBT community) his Company was a bit more conservative, although their home office is Downtown San Francisco.

Since you may may never get the Advocate (a periodical published for and by the GLBT community) You may not be aware of just how many companies are tapping into the moderate wealth of the GLBT community. That is why Queer Eye, Queer as Folk and a whole bunch of other "gay" tv shows and movies are "suddenly" airing.

Orbits (Travel company, I think) Has a Gay TV advert which is directly targeted at the Gay community - There are others that air at the "gay hour" on TV - and then there are many more Gay Targeted Adverts in the Advocate and other GLBT publications.

A lot of insurers are doing it quietly, letting Domestic Partners to be insured like married folk, or dependants. Others are directly peddling their wares tot he GLBT community. I think that they maybe get a far better deal at Two for One since the odds are good that not both partners will be "sick" - Or maybe (to be morbid) the old myth that gays die younger is a money making opprotunity.

There is a difference between saying "Can't marry today" by not acting, than to go out and make a constitutional amendment which clearly points out that it will never happen or that stymies the Judges who end up deciding a lot of the law or curtails the vote from deciding state by state. A federal constitutional amendment of this sort will directly take the right of each state to decide for itself what it thinks is right. The bible Belt States would, therefore, be able to maintain their stance while those more progressive liberal states would allow it.

On top of that, as a State letter we received pointed out, In this state this "Amendment" will cause the (at least temporary) loss of Domestic Partnership status for a good many people as California would have to re-decide if Domestic Partnership Laws are unconstitutional with the New and Improved constitution. that directly affects me, it would mean that I would lose my medical benefits - As just one point.

I know that seems insignificant to everyone else, but I am left with the burden of deciding if I get the operation I need in order to live without this constant nagging pain and to be able to perform at peak efficiency today, or do I wait until it is clear that next week or next month I will have the insurance to maintain post op treatments - My doctor tells me that I will spend at least a month in bed, perhaps longer on pain medication and other medicines, along with several months of physical therapy, "check ups" that include Sonograms possibly MRI to see the progression of the healing of bone and soft tissue.

All of those things are expensive. Should I take the operation I will lose any and all income for months - There is no way we would be able to finance all of the post op treatments if I lose Medical insurance in the process because Domestic Partnership Laws are being interpreted against a new amendment. I'd really hate to learn two weeks after the operation that I now have to finance all of these thngs out of pocket. Do you suppose I will get the full medical attention I need, or do you suppose that I will take the least expensive route which is to say self medicate, and make medical decisions for myself based on my broad and highly learned medical education?

While Bush may be making a political point to insure another term in office, David is putting off an operation and limping around in pain waiting for the Rest of the US to decide for me a life choice which frankly is no one else' business.

quote: I wish you much luck and happiness in your life. I am sure you realize that you have a 'tough row to hoe' ahead of you, but as I said, conviction is a rock and you will be happy you set those in your world straight. Smile



Well thanks for that wish. I can not see the "row to hoe" being any tougher than silence. If anything standing up and saying "NO" may be far easier in the long run. As I pointed out, this issue goes beyond Gay - I can personally relate to the gay part - which makes me acutely aware of how "those People" which are being condemned feel.

I can not see how I can respect myself if I, through inaction and silence, allow others to voice their opinions of others (Remember the beach whale?) without at least screaming back "Bigot!" when I see and hear it happen.

I think, and this is just a thought, if more people screamed back "Bigot" when a person makes a bigoted remark maybe that will cause people to be more choosy when it comes tot he things that scream and say.

D

04-24-04, 12:02 PM
honilov
Frank, back up a littlt there. We all do not have bi-sexual potential. I don't...then, now, and always. Due to David's posts, I really understand more about this, though. I had never taken the time to see the seriousness of it. I was never a hater of Gays like some people are. He really made me see some things that I was too close to the mirror to see. I doubt it very seriously, but maybe one day all minorities, in all phases of life, will not be hated. We all don't have to agree, but we don't have to hate. It would be so nice if more people would stand up and say, this is me, this is who I am, and if you like me, fine, and if you don't, go to....

04-24-04, 12:07 PM
DvdGStwrt

quote:Originally posted by Hugh:

quote:Originally posted by frankvan:
I am also not gay, but I think that the idea that one _chooses_ whether to follow a gay or a straight lifestyle is utter nonsense. Everyone who _chose_ his/her heterosexual lifestyle, please raise your hands. Wink



I could go both ways myself Frank. Tim Curry proved that to me when I was a teen.
I haven't for the same reasons I refused to discuss above, but the thought has sure as hell crossed my mind and I am not afraid to say that. But I choose to be heterosexual. So far.

I am close to a couple of different families who have a parent who was heterosexual for years and 'became gay'. If that isn't a choice I do not know what is.

I find it interesting that you focused in on a single word in the post. But, different strokes, I guess.. Smile



Not to quibble on this, however you are both right and both wrong.

You are both right in that SOME gays make a choice to be gay, you are both wrong to say that ALL gays make a choice - or not.

There is 10 different forms of homosexuality - these forms are based on a few things like, environment and biology. Other influences can be that a person is actually bisexual but makes a conscious choice to be one way or the other and identifies themselves as such.

This is what makes finding the Gay Gene harder, Not knowing what kind of flavor of gay we are liking at.

This doesn't include things like transgenderism, tran-sexuality - which actually there are many hard line straight men who love to dress up in woman's clothing - They hold the title straight because they do that with woman.

It is a person by person thing. There are those who do suddenly decide one day, to of the blue to be gay. There are others who hide behind the conventions of the straight world and will appear to make a sudden choice to be gay - When all they have really done is give up the lie and stopped pretending to be straight.

It is a far more complex thing than we think and it should not be broadly applied to everyone all the time.

04-24-04, 02:53 PM
frankvan
I still maintain that we all have the "POTENTIAL" for bi-sexuality. Those who are too quick to point out that they have not, now or ever had any attraction toward any member of their own gender have simply more completely repressed any such feelings than those who can acknowledge the possibility - at least. How does your inflexible self-knowledge account for the incidence of homosexuality in situations such as prison populations where the usual sexual outlets are unavailable?? Never having served a prison term, I'll admit that this could have other explanations, but I'm a little skeptical of simple protestations of heterosexual purity without some supporting argument. Clarebear and Honilov say they "chose" to be so straight as to be completely devoid of any bi-sexual potential. Isn't that tantamount to saying that "I'm an honest and law-abiding citizen. I have never had any temptation to be, or recognized the "potential" for someday committing a dishonest act."? Well, what's the big deal in refraining from something absent any desire to do it?? Methinks you doth protest too much.

04-24-04, 04:01 PM
Kelleygirl
David, thank you for giving us a lot to think about and consider (and maybe reconsider). I salute you and your efforts to be who you are.
Please be careful though; "Oh baby, baby, it's a wild world." But then you probably know that better than myself anyway. Good luck!

04-24-04, 04:29 PM
honilov
Actually Frank, I didn't choose to be straight. I was born straight. I've never gone to prison but in my heart, I don't believe that I would have sex with a woman voluntarily. Don't give any examples making it seem like I would ever have an interest in bi-sexuality. You can only speak for yourself. This thread is really shedding new light around here, but count me out of the bi-sexual mix. I still respect the Gays and will never utter another word against their lifestyle, but I am forever straight. Just give me a good looking hunk. Smile

04-24-04, 09:28 PM
clarebear
I think I'm getting caught up on the play of words here. Being straight isn't a struggle for me. It comes quite natural. So do I think I CHOSE to be straight- no. I just am straight. I think we all have the potential to be bi-sexual. You never know what the future holds. I do think that if I ever was with a woman it would be because my emotional relationship with her took me there not because I looked at her and desired her. Without going too far out on a limb here, I want the real thing and a girl just can't provide that for me! They don't have the right parts. Wink If I found that I was emotionally attached to a female and we went and bought the parts. It just wouldn't be the same. Therefore I am strickly dickly. Wink It is possible that I could be with a female but very unlikely. It would going against my grain. (it isn't something I feel in my.. uhm...heart yeah thats the word) Wink

04-27-04, 10:06 AM
Elexina
David, I wholeheartedly approve. If we allow others the right to express their beliefs, whether we agree with them or not, then you have ever right to do all of the things you have decided to do.
Would they rather you lie? ...Perhaps, but in the end it comes down to what makes you feel best about yourself.

Hugh, a note on insurance... Yes, it is nearly impossible for NASCAR drivers to get insurance. Gay people, however, are currently insured. You cannot be forced to disclose your sexual orientation to your insurance company, last I knew, and these companies would not suddenly be taking on a whole new list of people. They are, for the most part, already insured. They would simply be insured as partners rather than individuals -which is actually more expensive!

As far as choice goes... I think that, for the most part, people are what they are. They are born as they are. Some may realize their sexual leanings sooner and some later -leading to the impression that they’ve suddenly "chosen" to be gay or "became" gay, but that is not so.
If a gay person believes that he truly willingly chose to be gay, then that is from the horses' mouth. But if a straight person insists that HE was BORN with his sexuality and yet a gay person CHOOSES his, well, that strikes me as a bit hypocritical.

04-27-04, 07:38 PM
frankvan
How does the homophobe reason? If one condemns or criticizes the gay or lesbian, isn't that tantamount to claiming superior strength of character, being a better Christian, etc. for oneself ?? Doesn't that imply choice ? If I am a better person because of my heterosexual lifestyle, I MUST have made that choice to follow the "paths of righteousness", n'est pas?? I take credit for something that was simply an accident of nature, because how else could I disapprove of those whom nature configured differently?

04-27-04, 10:50 PM
MrsS

quote: Gay people, however, are currently insured. You cannot be forced to disclose your sexual orientation to your insurance company, last I knew, and these companies would not suddenly be taking on a whole new list of people. They are, for the most part, already insured. They would simply be insured as partners rather than individuals -which is actually more expensive!



But when it comes to auto insurance, two single men pay quite a lot more in premiums than a married couple of similar age, vehicle and driving history....I figured it out two years ago and together a couple who are my friends pay 40% more for their auto coverage than my husband and I do for similar coverage.

04-28-04, 03:49 PM
K.K.

quote:Originally posted by Elexina:
Hugh, a note on insurance... Yes, it is nearly impossible for NASCAR drivers to get insurance. Gay people, however, are currently insured. You cannot be forced to disclose your sexual orientation to your insurance company...

...As far as choice goes... I think that, for the most part, people are what they are. They are born as they are. Some may realize their sexual leanings sooner and some later -leading to the impression that they’ve suddenly "chosen" to be gay or "became" gay, but that is not so...


El, the insurance being discussed was clearly spousal insurance. Your point is rather redundant, as I am sure everyone in this thread will agree no one said "Gay people can't get insurance."

As to the matter of choice, that was originally in reference to how an insurance organization may choose to view ways to avoid the situation. Clearly, I did not agree that it was the right way for insurance providers to behave. My remarks were directed towards the source of resistance in the issue of spousal benefits for gay couples.



My favorite Aunt (rest her soul) was a happy, fully in

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