Should Gays and Lesbians be allowed to Adopt Children? ************************************************************* 08-14-03, 03:23 PM EBknowsBUBBA No. Absolutely not. Children need a normal environment. A gay household is not a normal environment to raise a child in.
Before some of you people out there start shooting the "You're being intolerant" remarks at me, I will say this. I have seen firsthand a household of this nature. The boy was living with his lesbion Mother and her partner. The boy was ridiculed quite a bit for a situation he had no control over. Also his "parents" didn't do much to watch after him. He was always into trouble.
08-14-03, 04:00 PM aminator2002 Yes, if they are good people who will provide a stable and loving environment for a child.
I have gay friends with kids and they are some of the best parents I know.
I think there are plenty of hetero families that I am much more opposed to... physical, and verbal abuse being the "norm"... divorce also being a norm...
My parents were great and it had nothing to do with them being male and female partners... they are great partners and understand committment.
08-14-03, 04:10 PM methos Ah... gotta love anecdotal 'evidence.'
Ridicule and a normal environment ... those are at least something to debate (though your one example doesn't say much).
Bad parenting by this one couple doesn't mean squat for the situation in general. I would be amazed if you could honestly tell me you've never seen a heterosexual couple who were poor parents. I wouldn't make generalizations about either group's parenting skills based on a single example (or a handful of examples, for that matter).
08-14-03, 06:47 PM Sherasi I think that parents of whatever combination can be either bad or negligent or terrific and supportive parents.
08-14-03, 06:57 PM MrsS Yes, they should and be subject to the same hoops that anyone else jumps through to secure an adoption...when a child needs a home, the issue should be "is this a secure, loving home inhabited by stable adults with a realistic idea of what it means to raise a child?" not "does this couple have dissimilar plumbing?"
08-14-03, 09:01 PM angela-cc I am neither for or against homosexuality. But I am against stereotyping. Should or should not really should be based upon the individuals.
08-14-03, 09:12 PM Wildflower63 I would only give gay adoption the ok if the biological parents were aware and gave consent. I also knew a girl with a lesbian couple. She was very open about it. She said the fact that her mother was in a gay relationship did not bother her at all. People making cracks about it did. From her tone, she sounded like she felt the people making fun of this situation were ignorant.
The couple was a bit overprotective of her given the girls age. I'm sure the ridicule is what they wanted to protect her from, but she freely would tell you about her family if asked, which I did. She was a friend of my son's. Of course you ask about their family.
This is just one couple and one teens view. I can't speak for others. I feel she was well adjusted and had no problems with this. She had a problem with intolerance and ignorance as she saw it. I do feel anyone putting a child up for adoption should know some basics about what kind of family they are giving their child to. This is pretty basic stuff.
08-14-03, 09:13 PM honilov In a case of adoption, I think no. I think a child should at least know which one to call mama or daddy. If it's 2 women..will the child call both mama and vice versa?
A gay couple should be happy with each other in the home, and don't involve kids. Of course they might be good parents, but the child would probably rather be raised by bad straights, rather than good gays. I know I would. Gays should think about the kid's feeling instead of their own.
08-15-03, 01:23 AM Wildflower63 Honiluv: Gays should think about the kid's feeling instead of their own.
I completely agree and that goes for everyone, straight or gay. Too many people are so worried about themselves to comprehend what they are going to realistically give the life they brought into this world.
08-15-03, 03:11 AM EBknowsBUBBA
quote:Originally posted by methos5000: Ah... gotta love anecdotal 'evidence.'
Ridicule and a normal environment ... those are at least something to debate (though your one example doesn't say much).
Bad parenting by this _one_ couple doesn't mean squat for the situation in general. I would be amazed if you could honestly tell me you've never seen a heterosexual couple who were poor parents. I wouldn't make generalizations about either group's parenting skills based on a single example (or a handful of examples, for that matter).
Even if I had never witnessed the situation I described, I would still feel the same way. It is bad enough that we see kids raised in single parent homes. But to allow a child to be adopted to gay/lesbian parents is totally and morally wrong.
08-15-03, 09:59 AM Kendor Not only no, HECK NO!!!!!!!!!
Everyone here was a child. Think honestly how you would feel if you were raised by a father and father, or a mother and mother, (as opposed to a mother and father, or one or the other). Talk about confused and spiteful! At least children in single parent homes usually know that man + woman = child, the way nature intented.
08-15-03, 01:05 PM frankvan I was, indeed, "a child once" as Kendor says. But I honestly believe that a child knows whether or not it is fed and clothed and loved. I think it matters little whether or not it has two married adults handling the necessities. If the family unit conforms to contemporary standards, thankfully becoming more acceptable every day, there is no reason for feelings of confusion or spite. It is not children, but adults, so sure of their own moral codes and beliefs, that present the problems. The less judgemental and sanctimonious the overall population, the more happy and well-adjusted children, either adopted by gays, lesbians, or unmarried or divorced heterosexuals we will have, and the fewer that will languish in foster or institutional care.
08-15-03, 01:14 PM methos The same old example, but the same arguments about the child being ridiculed could be made about interracial couples (especially in the recent past, but, to a degree, in the present as well).
08-15-03, 01:29 PM MrsS Kids are mean to each other, period! I still see kids being teased about having no dad or mom(when the parent is single by widowhood in one case!),about having an unusal name or too common a name(I went to school with Sue Smith and her brother Jimmy, they got loads of grief) about having a certain hair colour, about liking to read, about being unable to read, any thing at all that can be used to make a kid feel "different" will be siezed upon and used to cruelest advantage by someone! The job of the adults in a child's life is to teach them how to deal with this sort of vicious nonsense, not to try to make sure that the child and the household confom so thoroughly to a non-existant norm that the kid becomes judgement proof.
08-15-03, 04:04 PM Kwll Didn't think I would see the day, but honilov I am in agreement. Big Grin
08-15-03, 05:50 PM DvdGStwrt
quote:Originally posted by honilov: In a case of adoption, I think no. I think a child should at least know which one to call mama or daddy. If it's 2 women..will the child call both mama and vice versa?
A gay couple should be happy with each other in the home, and don't involve kids. Of course they might be good parents, but the child would probably rather be raised by bad straights, rather than good gays. I know I would. Gays should think about the kid's feeling instead of their own.
Take Kyre (prounounced like Fire but with a K)
A lovely 2 year old, she knew and understood who Mama was compared to Mommie. She made these definitions, we all had to learn ourselves who was who.
Smart kid? Perhaps. However, I think that children are very able to distinguish between two adults and place them in an order that makes sense to them.
Cheers
David
08-15-03, 05:57 PM DvdGStwrt
quote:Originally posted by EBknowsBUBBA: No. Absolutely not. Children need a normal environment. A gay household is not a normal environment to raise a child in.
Before some of you people out there start shooting the "You're being intolerant" remarks at me, I will say this. I have seen firsthand a household of this nature. The boy was living with his lesbion Mother and her partner. The boy was ridiculed quite a bit for a situation he had no control over. Also his "parents" didn't do much to watch after him. He was always into trouble.
Normal environment? Hmmm.
Children will be ridiculed for much more than just their parents. Here are some (a short list):
Fatty Fatty 2 X 4, can't fit through the Kitchen Door
Four Eyes
Tinsel Teeth Train Tracks
Skinny Minnie
Nerd
Mamma's boy
flood Pants
Nerd
The List goes on.
If you can think back to your childhood I think you will come to the conclusion that children love to emotionally abuse each other, and they are very willing and able to make up reasons:
"You got Cooties!" - Sound at all familiar? These are things that kids have no control over and are ridiculed daily for.
As for 'Not having Control' trust me, there are far and away many more 'Normal' families that have no control.
By the way it is spelled Lesbian not Lesbion.
David
08-15-03, 06:04 PM MrsS And while Jennifer, age 14, is not adopted, she has lived with her birth father and his partner(of 20some years) since she was an infant...the "men in her life" are Poppa and Dad. Jen is not the only kid I know raised by a gay couple, she's just the one I'm closest to and know the best. Children are actually pretty good at sorting out who means what in their lives...and by the way, she was class president last term, gets good grades and is active in her Camp Fire group, and is as impossibly moody as any 14 year old girl ...no maladjustment there....
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
Well I have been accused of having a mothering instinct. LOL.
Actually the therapist who listened to my issues with my parents came to the conclusion (after many years of listening) that all in all I would make an excellent father in as much as I had learned what not to do.
Kendor:
quote:
Everyone here was a child. Think honestly how you would feel if you were raised by a father and father, or a mother and mother, (as opposed to a mother and father, or one or the other).
Obviously you were raised in a good home. kudos to you. Those who were raised in an abusive home will have a very different opinion on the matter rather choosing two parents of the same sex who can provide them with a loving stable home than 'normal' parents who beat them or abused them in all the wonderful ways you and I can imagine.
Personally I would not adopt a child. simply because I can not see myself having all that worry and pain that raising children brings.
Also I doubt I am financially able to take on the expensive proposition of raising a child.
I know that raising a child is a very big responsibility.
And the gay couple (man/man) I know who have two kids make excellent parents and are able to afford the kids (one works the other is a stay at home dad). Ae aware of that responsibility, they have become parents, one gave up carreer while the other continues working - to make the best possible home for their children. Both love and protect and tend to the children
And the kids? No issues, love both their parents (actually all of their parents) and would seriously be offended by some of the negative comments made here.
It is the 21st century, not the dark ages. We are seeing single parents raising children, we are seeing grand parents raising children. We are seeing children raising children.
Some very successfully, others no so successfully.
Not because of gender, or sexuality - but because of their ability to maintain their own sanity in the mix.
I seriously doubt that there are any good reasons to deny parenthood to a group of people due to racial, political, religious, sexual oreintation, age, gender, yada, yada yada.
In the end we have to judge the individual not one who they love but if they are capable, emotionally, mentally, physically, spiritually and financially to raise children.
David *********************************************** 08-15-03, 06:31 PM Scotty
quote:Originally posted by Wildflower63: Should Gays and Lesbians be allowed to Adopt Children?
Definitely should not be able to adopt children. Children need to be raised in a normal environment.
08-15-03, 07:02 PM Kendor David, how can you say those kids have no issues? How can you ever know that? For example, most kids of heterosexual couples cringe at the thought of what their parents might be doing behind the bedroom door. I hate to think what in the heck is going through the minds of the kids you're talking about in that regard. Oh the confusion!
08-15-03, 08:39 PM frankvan Scotty: Quote: "Children need to be raised in a normal environment."
Please describe "normal environment" Confused
08-15-03, 09:59 PM honilov Kwll, I never noticed that you and I disagreed on most things, but I 'do' seem to be the odd ball among almost everybody else. Wonder why? Big Grin Big Grin
What shocked me is that this Gay post is the 'first' post that Scotty and I have ever agreed on. Hey, what's going on? Big Grin
This also seem to be the 'first' post that Frankvan and I are 'sorta' in disagreement with. Smile
This is such a hot topic...maybe there's a lot to learn here. Look how many 'first times' this topic have brought out. Smile
08-16-03, 02:08 AM DvdGStwrt
quote:Originally posted by Kendor: David, how can you say those kids have no issues? How can you ever know that? For example, most kids of heterosexual couples cringe at the thought of what their parents might be doing behind the bedroom door. I hate to think what in the heck is going through the minds of the kids you're talking about in that regard. Oh the confusion!
Let's see, they have lots of freinds, get good grades, are happy, well balanced and in general are not confused, angry or upset with having two parents of the same sex.
Personally I never thought about what my parent's did behind closed doors until I was an adult. Today those thoughts are rather funny - but then you never met my parents - so how could you understand the humor? Big Grin
David
08-16-03, 08:13 AM frankvan honilov, Consider this. When you and I "sorta" find ourselves disagreeing on something, perhaps one of us might be mistaken?? Wink
08-16-03, 08:44 AM Jelp01 Just to muddy the waters, Wink if gay adoptions were to be banned altogether, then isn't that discriminating against homosexual men???? After all, lesbians can still have children by birth. All it takes is artificial insemination......
As for me personally, I'm uncomfortable with the whole idea. But since I'm not homosexual, it doesn't affect me personally. So live and let live, I guess.
08-16-03, 01:02 PM honilov Frankvan, you're right about maybe one of us is mistaken. It could be me, because with all the gay threads that's been on the boards lately, I've learned things that I didn't know existed. I think my mind was already made up about Gays, without really having enough knowledge to judge. I've always thought of racists as being ignorant, and I guess I'm no different than they are with my views about Gays.
I think one difference though, is that I just didn't have enough knowledge to understand Gays, and their issues, and feelings. I just cast them to the side as being wrong, because I wasn't interested about their feelings. Some of David's posts have really made me see that we are all just people. Now if we could just get racists to bend a little bit, and admit they might be wrong, maybe we all could get along better.
I don't mean to bring racism into this thread, but I think it was neccessary for me to compare my views. Racists are haters and I'm no hater.
08-16-03, 02:07 PM Scotty
quote:Originally posted by frankvan: _Scotty: _ Quote: "Children need to be raised in a normal environment."
_Please describe "normal environment"_ Confused
Frankvan, what part of normal don't you understand?
08-16-03, 02:20 PM Sherasi Scotty, I think Frankvan is saying "normal" is interpreted differently by almost everyone.
In my humble opionion, there is no "right" and "wrong" and there is no "normal". What really matters in the long run is raising well-balanced children who are emotionally secure about their place within the context of their family unit (however it is composed) and that they have the love and support of that family.
I think it is judgemental and small-minded to assume only certain combinations of family members can raise healthy, happy children. Certainly if there is love, compassion and support, children can become well-balanced adults.
08-16-03, 02:50 PM Scotty Sherasi, I understand completely what you are trying to say, but I don't think that a child could be emotionally secure in an abnormal family life situation where you have two males or two females as a family unit instead of a mother and father. It is the norm to have a family consisting of a mother (female) and a father (male).
08-16-03, 06:24 PM DvdGStwrt Hmm. Thinking about it then Normal Parents are the key to the whole issue.
Thus I would have to assume that a couple of little people (Dwarfs) shouldn't have children.
Can you imagine the remarks kids will make on the school yard?
Can you imagine the mental images these kids would suffer through when they think about what goes on behind their parents doors?
It's not like little people are 'Normal', After all, their children usually grow up to be much bigger than them, this means that they will not be able to stand over the children, and in some cases dwarfism is disabling, thus one or possibly both parents will not be able to pick up the child.
How about blind couples? Can you imagine the fun remarks said on the school yard about that? Can you imagine the thoughts that those kids would have of their parents in the privacy of their bedroom blindly making their way?
Gee, blind folk are not 'normal' after all, if their child should get a cut, how can they 'see' to tend the wound? How can a blind couple be allowed to have children if they can see?
How about those deaf couples?
Can you imagine the remarks on the play ground? After all the deaf will not be able to hear the cries of their child - They are obviously not 'normal'.
How about one black and one white parent? Can you imagine the remarks on the play ground? Can you imagine the thoughts of those kids as they try to picture their parents in the bed room?
What about the Fat couple? Can you imagine the comments made on the playground? Can you imagine the images that would arise in the child picturing their fat parents coupling? Obviously being Fat is not Normal, and leads to many health issues and can be an impediment to a parent being able to take care of their child.
Do you see where this 'Normal' Parent problem leads too?
What I find truly amazing is that 'Normal' Is thrown out as if their is a 'normal' to be considered. If you can easily dismiss one couple because they are not 'normal' then you have no other choice to start looking at all the other anti-'normal' parents in the world and start taking away their right to have children.
Considering that there are millions of children out there without parents, one would think that our society would be happy to have loving couples (of any race, gender, physical disability, religion, ad nauseum) willing and able to commit to the life long process of child raising. One would think that the mere thought that there is at least one person who desires to love and tend and nurture a child would far out weigh this preconceived and badly myth-used notion of "Normal".
Tell me, if we really press the point are any of us here 'Normal'?
David
08-16-03, 06:55 PM MrsS I am the only child of a single mom (who was, herself, an adopted only child)....another "abnormal" family, but I like to think I turned out okay, even though I did not have the "normal" household including a mother and a father.
08-16-03, 07:39 PM frankvan Scotty:"Frankvan, what part of normal don't you understand?": I don't presume to judge what constitutes a normal environment. That's why I asked you to describe it. Apparently you can not, so you answer a question with a question. Although you claim to understand Sherasi "completely" I think you flatter yourself. Anyone who thinks that a family has to be comprised of a male father (head of the family, no doubt) and a female mother, (suitably subservient) in order to raise children "properly", ought to, at least be willing to provide persuasive arguments to that end. I have seen more outrages committed against children by conventional family units, who were as sure as you seem to be, that they absolutely "knew" what was "normal". As Eric Remarque said, "Tolerance is the daughter of doubt". Smile
08-17-03, 12:21 PM Scotty David, your argument is meaningless,all of the people that you mentioned may have a handicap,but they are capable of conceiving children naturally as husband and wife. I do not think that two males or two females are capable of doing the same.
Frankvan,if you are trying to paint me as a bigot,thats your opinion. I don't consider myself one.
I hold a degree in Clinical Psychology,and I feel that I know a little about the subject. The majority of the people in the world consider a man and wife as a "normal" family unit. I am not a gay hater,but I do not believe their lifestyle is normal either.
08-17-03, 01:29 PM frankvan Scotty Quote" Frankvan,if you are trying to paint me as a bigot,thats your opinion. I don't consider myself one.I hold a degree in Clinical Psychology,and I feel that I know a little about the subject
" Scotty, I'm not trying to paint you as anything, but I do believe your opposition to gay adoption is not only unjust, but it seems to me inconsistent with the credentials you claim. My area of expertise is electrical engineering, but unless I'm badly mistaken, homosexuality is no more "abnormal" than left-handedness.The belief that homosexuality was a chosen behavior and therefore could be treated with psychotherapy, has been abandoned by the psychological community, or am I mistaken ?? Is there actually, to this day, a school of psychology that represents your contention that homosexuality is abnormal? I don't think I am alone in my belief so I think it behooves someone with your training in the subject to disabuse us of our incorrect opinions".
Scotty Quoteavid, your argument is meaningless,all of the people that you mentioned may have a handicap,but they are capable of conceiving children naturally as husband and wife "
It would seem to me that if the criterion for suitability as adoptive parents were as you say: "being capable of conceiving children naturally as husband and wife", what reason would anyone have for adopting children? And wouldn't that also rule out in vitro fertilization?
08-17-03, 02:18 PM Scotty Frankvan,you are correct in 1973 by a vote of the trustees of the American psychiatric Assn,homosexuality was expunged from the list of recognized mental disorders,thus producing an "instant cure" for the millions of gay men and women of our Society. whatever the motives behind this action and they appear to have been principled and ethical ones- the voting of a disorder out of existence raises questions concerning the fundamental value of applying a medical perspective to personal and sociobehavioral issues.
What is the likelihood that pneumonia and Cancer will one day be declared by vote to be no longer a disease? The removal of psychiatric stigma from homosexuality was incomplete. The original version of DSMIII ,adopted in 1980 ,continued to list ego-diatonic homosexuality as a mental disorder. Most cultures have condemned homosexuality as socially undesirable.
08-17-03, 05:25 PM Buddy >>Yes, but you might need to change a few Laws<<
Occurring more often is the claim that courts are not the regulators of morality as such. The Palmore v. Sidoti, the Supreme Court found that it tis not the court's job to direct or tolerate prejudice, "[p]rivate biases may be outside the reach of the law, but the law cannot, directly or indirectly, give them effect".
missouri.edu Summarizing the two sides of each argument can be done so concisely since they are each diametrically opposed to each other. First, conservatives argue homosexuality is immoral and it should be the function of the court to legislate morality. Homosexual parents have not responded to those pointing out the illegality of their activity, but have suggested it's not the court's role to determine morality. Second, some assume homosexual parents want to and will convert their children. However studies do not support these assumptions. Heterosexual parents are more likely to raise homosexual children than homosexual parents. Third, homosexual parents are suspected of child molesting more frequently than heterosexual parents. Once again, these claims are emperically inaccurate. Fourth, children of homosexual parents are nore likely to contract AIDS, although there is no household activity that puts the child in danger. Finally, some are concerned social rejection of the child might result from the homosexuality of the parent. While this has been a typical and legitimate concern, courts have chosen to disregard it. In race related cases the court has refused to "protect" the child from a disapproving society, and so it is in homosexual custody cases.
Opinion
Homosexual parents have come a long way in their struggle for custodial, and visitation right, but the struggle is not yet over. They have good evidence, and expert opinion on their side, but it has been made their duty to prove that homosexuality is not the defining characteristic of their parental ability. The nexus test in conjunction with the best interest of the child test has done much to advance homosexual custody rights by placing the burden of proof on the plaintiff. Breakthroughs like Doe v. Doe have tried to do just that. The nexus test and the best interest test still allow for judicial discretion, which is often abused. The most persuasive argument made by those denying homosexual parents custody rights is not the one on which they focus. The argument that has gone basically unnoticed is that today homosexual activity is illegal. To condone that behavior by awarding custody demonstrates an undesirable inconsistancy in the law. Instead, they've focused on the impact society's slings and arrows might have on the children. I propose the statutes barring homosexual activity be removed, in the name of legal consistency and the fourteenth amendment. I consider all arguments made by homosexuals desiring custody of their children logical, and cohesive. Hopefully, but doubtfully, this is a debate that will soon be outdated. Unfortunately hate and distrust of homosexuality have been mankind's companions since ancient Roman times. Audre Lorde has written careful analyses of the problems encountered by marginalizing group. Perhaps homosexual parents should heed her words: "the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house." This quote suggests marginalized groups should redefine themselves in terms and on grounds that do not favor the majority. If these groups cannot do so, their chances of success are minimal. Since the laws on the books obviously favor majority, and the majority has predetermined pathways for changing those laws, maybe homosexual parents should re-rexamine their strategies for acheiving their goals
08-17-03, 05:37 PM Buddy The second misconception held by the judiciary is that homosexual parents might convert their children to homosexuality, destroying the familial unit. There is "substantial consensus" that homosexual parents do not tend to raise homosexual children. In fact sexual preference is "developed before adolescence, somewhere between the ages of 3 and 6" and does not vary between children of homosexual parents and children of heterosexual parents. A common misconception is that homosexual parents want their children to become homosexual as well, which is not the case. The third and fourth claims of the increased chances of molestation and AIDS communication have no empirical basis. Actually, studies suggest that "sexual molestation of children is much more likely to be performed by heterosexual rather than homosexual men". A similar conclusion was reached in a study finding "97% of child molesters are heterosexual males, and 87% of the victims are female". Some judges refuse to allow homosexuals visitation rights because they are afraid the homosexual parent is more likely to contract and communicate AIDS. Here lies another fallacy. There are no household activities that would put the child at greater risk of infection, even if the parent had HIV.
08-17-03, 05:40 PM MrsS Gay adoption
quote:Originally posted by Buddy: >>Yes, but you might need to change a few Laws<<
The most persuasive argument made by those denying homosexual parents custody rights is not the one on which they focus. The argument that has gone basically unnoticed is that today homosexual activity is illegal.
No, it is not...The Supreme Court ruled against Texas' sodomy law just a few weeks age, effectively repealing all such statutes.
08-17-03, 06:04 PM Buddy Ok...MrsS...Good for them
08-18-03, 03:03 PM DvdGStwrt
quote:Originally posted by Scotty: David, your argument is meaningless,all of the people that you mentioned may have a handicap,but they are capable of conceiving children naturally as husband and wife. I do not think that two males or two females are capable of doing the same.
Um, ok - But the topic is on Should Gays Adopt. And that is what I'm addressing in my remarks above, the adoption of children by these 'abnormal' peoples.
From your post, I can only conclude that you would not allow these people to adopt children.
David
08-18-03, 07:34 PM frankvan Scotty:... "they are capable of conceiving children naturally as husband and wife. I do not think that two males or two females are capable of doing the same."
It's just a matter of time, until cloning is perfected. Wink
08-25-03, 12:36 PM Elexina
quote: Should Gays and Lesbians be allowed to Adopt Children?
Sure! If they are financially capable and responsible enough to raise a child, there is no reason why a loving couple shouldn't be able to share its love with a child (a child that was born and abandoned by a straight person, no doubt).
EBknowsBUBBA and Scotty, gay households are only considered abnormal because society raises its children to view it that way. I know people who grew up in gay households who experienced no mocking in school and grew up perfectly fine.
quote: Also his "parents" didn't do much to watch after him. He was always into trouble.
This is a reflection on the parents as parents, not as homosexuals. There are plenty of straight people who have no business being parents and yet they are never questioned. How many children did Eddie Lee Sexton have, and no one questioned whether he should be allowed to be a parent.
quote: by angela-cc: Should or should not really should be based upon the individuals.
Precisely. Prospective parents should be considered based on their overall ability to be good parents, whether they are straight or gay.
quote: by Wildflower: I would only give gay adoption the ok if the biological parents were aware and gave consent.
Of course, a parent that gives up his/her child for whatever reason is pretty much signing away all consent as to what becomes of that child. Some of these parents couldn't give a hoot about what happens to the kid. For the rest of them, all they usually want is for the child to be safe and healthy and happy. A gay couple can provide such an environment just as well as a straight couple. A parent who does not want his/her child, but expects to have specific say over where this child end up ought to have thought about this before having the unwanted child in the first place.
quote: by Honilov: Gays should think about the kid's feeling instead of their own.
Gay people who want children are thinking of themselves, certainly, but no adoptive parent should expose a child to a situation in which it is not comfortable. You cannot know what a child in this situation would want, and every child is different. If I had the choice to be raised in a "bad" family or a "good" family, I would pick the good family without pause, regardless of the orientation of that family.
quote: A gay couple should be happy with each other in the home, and don't involve kids.
Why? A gay couple could be great parents. Their feelings and maternal/paternal instincts are no different from a straight couple's. Should single women not be allowed to adopt, because there is no "daddy" in the home? Should older couples not be allowed to adopt because they have "passed the child-bearing age"? Should an infertile couple not be allowed to adopt because they don't know what it's like to have children?
quote: by Kendor: At least children in single parent homes usually know that man + woman = child, the way nature intented.
Even though I was born into and raised in a "straight home," this math equation bypassed me somehow. I was always taught that Love = Family.
quote: by Scotty: It is the norm to have a family consisting of a mother (female) and a father (male).
Again, only the "norm" because it is what society teaches us to tolerate. I have yet to see a good reasoning for calling homosexual households "abnormal." Of course, some of them do tend to be strangely clean and organized. That is weird, isn't it?
quote: David, your argument is meaningless,all of the people that you mentioned may have a handicap,but they are capable of conceiving children naturally as husband and wife.
All right, then, what of an infertile blind couple? But really, now we're back to the old argument about conception, and this thread is about adoption. Should blind people be allowed to adopt, realizing that their children might be put at a disadvantage socially? By the way: "[u]disease[/u]: A condition of an organism that impairs physiological functioning, resulting from causes such as infection, genetic defect, or environmental stress." Homosexuality does not fit this definition. Cancer and pneumonia do.
quote: by Buddy: The argument that has gone basically unnoticed is that today homosexual activity is illegal. by MrsS: The Supreme Court ruled against Texas' sodomy law just a few weeks age, effectively repealing all such statutes. by Buddy: Ok...MrsS...Good for them
This is your only response? Your posts are always so lengthy and all-encompassing, I have often wondered if any of them are your own thoughts or if they are all, as they appear, snippets and plagiarism from various other writers. This is in no way intended to be a insult toward you, I am just confused by many of your posts in which you seem to present no argument, only the opinions of others. When MrsS points out that part of your post is fundamentally wrong, one would think you might re-think the approach of the remainder of your post. Does your response change in light of your new-found knowledge?
08-25-03, 11:39 PM honilov Elexina, if a Lesbian couple adopts a newborn, and when the baby starts to talk and understand, will he/she think there's 2 mommies? If so, will it be like mommy #1, and mommy #2? Confused
08-26-03, 09:33 AM Elexina Well, Honilov, as with any other family, that depends on what the parents want the baby to call them. Most children say "Mom and Dad" but some say "Ma" or "Father" or other variations. It would be the same for a lesbian couple. Most likely, one would be "Mom" and one would be "Mommy" or something along those lines. This is not, of course, only an issue for newborn adopted children. Any adopted child, and indeed any child, comes to a point in their lives when they must figure out what to call their parental figures.
08-26-03, 10:17 PM honilov Elexina, almost the first words that a baby speaks are Ma Ma and Da Da, so I find it most confusing to tell the baby, I'm your Mom, and she's your Mommy.
Okay, from some of the discussions that I've had with you in the past, you probably know by now, that we could discuss this until the 12th of never, and I'd still be confused. Smile
So, if Gays want to adopt, go for it, because God is gonna watch out for the little children.
08-27-03, 08:19 AM Elexina Honilov, children speak what they are taught. They don't just start saying things without having an example. Parents teach their children what to call them, be it "ma ma" or "mommy" or whatever. The children make sounds in the beginning, but the sounds were first encouraged by the parents.
08-27-03, 08:48 AM Sherasi one rebuttal to that sound making is..
mamamama
dadadadada
bababababa
are all very basic sounds that are the first and easiest sounds to make.
Probably the words for "Mama" and "Dada" evolved FROM those sounds 30,000 + years ago.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
Posts: 3993 | Location: Leaving land, heading for the ocean | Registered: 06-03-02
avid, your argument is meaningless,all of the people that you mentioned may have a handicap,but they are capable of conceiving children naturally as husband and wife "
