Most of us have seen the arguments used against things such as gay marriages or even civil unions. It leads to the moral decay of society, homosexuality is wrong, it will make it so brothers and sisters can get married, or a man can have seventeen wives.

Let's reverse this. What happens if we DON'T allow gay marriage, or civil unions, whichever you prefer?

I'm going to use an example from my global class last year and the Holocaust. I don't mean any disrespect to anybody; I am not trying to bring the death of six million people down to an example smaller in comparison. This example may be a bit extreme, but then again it may not be. Anyway. We were learning about the Holocaust and what the road really was to the mass genocide. It went something like this:

Differences- not bad, really--> just people noting a difference between themselves and someone else.

Prejudice- people having negative thoughts about someone BECAUSE of their differences.

Stereotype- people assuming that all people from this group are bad or do certain things. This would fall under people thinking Jews were dirty crooks, or that all gays like Cyndi Lauper and wear high-heels around the house, etc.

Discrimination- taking away certain rights that others get; Jews were not allowed to marry Aryans, Gays are not allowed to marry each other. ETC.

Persecution- constant harrassment, oppression

Genocide- murdering.


Right now different people are on different places in the spectrum. We have the people who know gays are different and don't really care. We have the people who are prejudiced against gays, be it from religion or fear or whatever. We have the people who assume things about gays and stereotype them out of ignorance. This are all attitudes. Then we get into the actions. Obviously gays are not allowed to marry right now, thus making them second-class citizens. Persecution, we have people harrassing them, Bible-thumpers constantly telling them to stop sinning, etc. Genocide, obviously involves hate crimes against homosexuals.

The more people do these things, while the government and the people just stand by and watch, the more they think they can get away with. Half of the country is already at the discrimination point. What's next? And THAT is the slippery slope argument that I think is more reasonable.
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03-20-04, 04:57 AM
shelster
This really hit me. I never thought about it this way at all, but you have a very very good point. I am curious to see what others think as well.
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03-20-04, 12:41 PM
teeceeum
I really don't see moral decay as an issue. I think that it was David who pointed out that there was a time when the Christian Church recognized and sanctioned homosexual unions. And homosexuality has been a biological fact of life for thousands of years. Even so, we don't see any increase in the population of gays versus straights.

Gays have been "out of the closet" for a couple of decades now and we still don't see any unproportainal increase in their numbers. I think it's obvious that recognizing homosexuality is not causing a rampant conversion of straights to the gay life. And no one has yet offered anything even resembling a reasonable argument to the contrary.

Let me make it absolutely, unequivically, and perfectly clear that I am not gay. Never have been and can't imagine that I ever will be. And to give you a little more background, let me tell you that I went to an art school. At least half the students there were gay. I was around them on a daily basis. It certainly didn't cause me any confusion as to my own sexual orientation. If anything, it may have served to solidify my position.

I believe that those who rail so loudly against gays are ignorant in the literal sense. They just really don't know. They've probably had no or very limited contact with gays. And they base their opinions on the outrageous acts they see reported in the mass media. When you rely on someone else to inform you, you end up with someone else's opinions.
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03-20-04, 09:23 PM
DvdGStwrt
Yes we are 10% - but if you consider that 10% of the population are doctors, lawyers, firemen, policemen, mail carriers, on and on and on - You have to wonder what would happen if one day 10% of the population just decided not to go to work that day.

Put it that way and we quickly see that the number is staggering. In the USA alone at 284,796,887 people that 28 million plus are gay.

Put them all in one state:

California 35.5 million people in 2003.
Texas (22.1 million)
New York (19.2 million)

These three are the most populous states.

This gives you a better idea of just how many people are being regulated to second class citizens. The population of at least any one state - Except California.

Granted not all of us are vying for that right to marry - but not every straight is looking to marry either.

The holocaust claimed about 6 million - That is a small number compared to 28 million - Granted no one is rounding us up and taking us to the Death Camps (Not yet) however there are those who talk about it (Rex 84 Martial law contingency program), There are any number who are willing and able to put a gay boy in his place - happens all the time, and it usually is 2 or more on one gay - And we know that it doesn't take much for a mob to do some nasty things.

Indeed.

Matthew Sheppard died from a few angry people. Many gays have been beaten up - many killed. This problem is not just in the USA - every country has its share of gay bashings - some which end in death. Most (not all, but a good number, say 70%) of the Gay Lesbian Bisexual Transgendered community has had at least one altercation (physical) with a straight person who didn't approve of their sexual orientation.

At least 100% have been called any assortment of names, called a sinner, told that God hates them, that they are going to hell, that they are sick, perverted, twisted, unwell in the head or just a plain old scum bag which being gay is the lower than child molester or granny raper.

This most recent round of Bushite anti-gay programing is so he can win votes in 2004. Of course he allows us to bugger one another but we can't marry. We can have the sex, just not the love I guess.... Not that he was going to get my vote anyways.

Unfortunately for us Gays out in the Rural lands where we do not have our supporting community of the big cities it is open season again.

I had to remove the Rainbow sticker this past month - it appears that somebody knew what it means and scratched "fa---T" into the side of my truck. Of course having been "taught a lesson" by a small group of good ole boys once is one of those memories that come back to haunt me at times like that - or when I hear someone scream that word on the street. Granted I am no nelly queen, but I did have the rainbow flag - and our community is small enough to where many folks know that I live with a man, in a one bedroom trailer, for several years - dating no girls.... You get the picture.

Terrorized comes to mind. But I understand that terrorists only wear turbans and work for some middle Eastern Group - they are not your "spirited" neighbors who make certain that you know that they do not approve of your sexual orientation. I flew my Gay flag for a 4th of July party the first year I lived here. My neighbor came over and asked me to take down the flag.

He knew what it meant.

Of course if I was a murder, that would be ok.

Or a thief, or a politician (a mixture of both).

What happens when the Media makes a big deal out of us and plasters Gays all over the news every single day? Well for this gay guy its a matter of being more watchful and carrying a big stick. When we go out, we go with protection. Faith in God is great, but I also place faith in Smith and Wesson.

Yes, cool, calm, sweet compassionate David is packing iron - simply because I am terrified that all of this circus about the gays is going to stir up the stink. I can see the subject boiling at the back of many minds - sooner or later its going to come to blows -

That's what happens.

David
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03-20-04, 09:49 PM
MrsS
David...being stranded in Montana, I fully sympathise with your geographic issue...I took my leather pride decal and my "Straight not Narrow" sticker off before we moved here, not so much out of fear, but a strong wish not to explain them to my mother in law...I have since become glad I removed them...there is a lovely pair of women who patronize my coffee house...I assume the are a couple, based on how they treat each other and their body language....and the thin rainbow ribbon that used to run across the top of their rear windsheild...used to? Yes...their rear windsheild was broken out the other day...I don't know that the decal was the inspiration for the vandalism, but I have been given no reason here to think otherwise. I hate being afraid to "fly my colours" I hate that you need to fear flying yours....I especially hate that neither of us is overreacting.
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03-21-04, 01:58 PM
frankvan
And I am happy that I have lived long enough to find many remarkable young people like Indigo. There is still room for optimism in the future. I'm proud to say that there are several rainbow flags on my street, and they have been for the past six years, to my knowledge. Keep the faith.
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03-21-04, 05:06 PM
IndigoFlavours
Thanks, frankvan Big Grin

I must say I'm a bit surprised that this doesn't have more replies. There have been fifty views.... I had been hoping to hear more people's opinions on this. Jeez, Kendor gets a few pages' worth of replies Wink Wonder where he is...
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03-23-04, 11:39 PM
Sherasi
I think witch hunting is a totally human (and dispicable) part of life. Whether you are Jewish, Gay, Black or Female (or any one of innumerable "subgroups") there will be people who do not like what/who you are, what you do or what you represent.

Fear and intolerance can make people do extreme things. Bigotry exists, and honestly it often goes both ways in arguments. (One of my best friends uses the phrase "Breeders" for Straights. That is a very demeaning label to me, but there it is.) There are some Blacks that hate whites as avidly as some Whites hate Blacks. It is an unending vicious circle.

While I have not sorted out my own feelings/opinions of Civil unions of Gays (or even Polygamy), I feel that the choices people make are their own and no one has the right to tell them what to do. Violence and intolerance is certainly not the right way to express dissatisfaction in another persons Life choices.
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03-24-04, 07:01 AM
juanruiz
I see David refers to 10%, a number that has been bandied about for some time. If I recall correctly, this figure goes back to Kinsey, whose study procedures have been called into question. Anyone know of more recent studies on the subject?
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03-24-04, 08:21 AM
doñadiana
IndigoFlavors says:

quoteiscrimination- taking away certain rights that others get; Jews were not allowed to marry Aryans, Gays are not allowed to marry each other. ETC.


I'm not sure that this is a valid comparison. It seems that you are comparing apples and oranges. Also, how can you "take away" something that never existed?
There is a lot of insinuation that "Bible-thumpers" are the cause of all this problem. This in itself is a form of discrimination...trying to promote hatred against a certain group of people because of their beliefs. Do you think that non-Christian China or Russia are allowing homosexual marriages? I tried to look it up on the internet and I could not find any place that said they were. In fact, I found a place that said that Russia was considering banning marriage.

I agree with Sherasi that discrimination is a universal condition of the human race. Some people will look for any excuse to commit violence against another member of the human race, and/or the animal world, or nature. It is a sin problem and you will not solve it by putting Christianity in the closet.
DD
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03-24-04, 08:45 AM
methos

quote:Originally posted by juanruiz:
I see David refers to 10%, a number that has been bandied about for some time. If I recall correctly, this figure goes back to Kinsey, whose study procedures have been called into question. Anyone know of more recent studies on the subject?



Studies of a wide sample population generally show around 2-3% of men as having engaged in sex with other men within a certain extended time period (usually 20 years or more), and around 1% considering themselves homosexual. Their are fewer statistics of those men having engaged in homosexual sex at any point in their lives, but the number seems to be around 6%. The statistics for women are harder to come by due to fewer studies having been done.

Some studies do agree more closely with Kinsey, but those that I have seen have likewise had their methods questioned.

Kinsey's studies have been criticized due to his possibly biased sample population (largely prisoners), but supporters of his statistics cite the interview technique he used as more likely to get frank answers than other studies.

[This message was edited by methos on 03-24-04 at 08:10 AM.]

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