I heard a clip on the news this morning that a 4th grade girl has been allowed to change her name to a boy's, and dress like one, because it has been determined that she is a person with the "body of a female but with the brain of a boy". What is that supposed to mean?? **************************************************** 03-04-05, 05:12 PM MommyTimesTwo She's transsexual.
03-04-05, 07:49 PM MrsS Gender is such tricky business! I do wish you'd been able to provide a link to this...This could be a psychological gender issue, or the child could be medically, truly transgendered, having the physical characteristics of a female but carrying the male chromosonal makeup....it happens more often than most folks realize and the medical community is leaning towards the idea that it's caused by insufficient androgens produced during pregnancy to fully trigger the development of the male physiology...something that's no-one's fault and extremely hard to predict. Please let me stress that androgen defiency is only one theory among many, but it is a theory showing promise.
03-05-05, 11:59 PM MrsS Very interesting story, thanks for the link, Honi. I admire the parents and the school in this case for their efforts to best serve Phillip's happiness and well being, this has to be terribly difficult for them...and I am terrifically proud of Phillip and his classmates for having apparently managed this transition with more grace than many adults can muster...before anyone jumps on me, no, I don't think that this is something to do lightly or just because a girl has a tomboy personality, or a boy has a gentle, sensitive nature(or whatever). In this case, the decision was made "After years of working with doctors and mental health professionals in a variety of specialties..."
I'll be watching this story with great interest, though I hope everything settles so well that there is nothing further to write about.
03-06-05, 09:59 PM gerry If transexuality, homosexuality, and heterosexuality(?) start in utero, that is, in the genes, so to speak, I am wondering as the transexual child progresses through puberty, adolescence, and adulthood, whether he or she is homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual in his/her sexual relationships? That is to say, if transexuality starts at birth, was the transexual also destined at birth to be attracted to the same or different sex of the sex he or she has in the brain?
03-06-05, 11:42 PM DvdGStwrt Male (mind) in a male body attracted to male is homosexual (homosexual men like being men)
Female (mind) in female body attracted to female is lesbian (they like being women)
Male or female (mind) in respective body attracted to opposite gender heterosexual.
Male or female (mind) in any body attracted to both genders is bisexual.
Male or female (mind) born in opposite gender body attracted to opposite gender heterosexual
Male or female (mind) born in opposite gender body attracted to same gender (as the mind) gay/lesbian
Male or female (mind) born in opposite gender body attracted to both genders Bisexual.
In the case of a transsexual they are a she (in a he body) attracted to men as a woman is attracted to men. OR a He in a female body attracted to women. If they desire to have the right equipment to insert or receive as a heterosexual. If instead they desire the equipment of the opposite gender (physical) and still are attracted to that gender (i.e. a he in a she desires a penis to be with a he) they are gay.
In reality it would be far, far easier if we didn’t have to define all of these “sexual rules” and go with the fact that humans are sexual beings with sexuality No Homo, Hetero, Bi, Pan, A, etc.
03-07-05, 09:16 AM MrsS David, you're a better man than I...I got dizzy even thinking of the potential combinations of gender orientation and sexual orientation, I heartily applaud your analysis of that incredible tangle.
03-07-05, 12:56 PM DvdGStwrt Don't ever ask me to do it again.
03-07-05, 04:15 PM gerry I won't, but my question is still unanswered, I think. Is a transexual also a homosexual or heterosexual (in mind) at birth, or is it chosen later on in life? In other words, let's assume our female bodied male minded fourth grade transexual gets a sex change with male organs, then at some point she will have sex or desire sex with a another person; will it be her choice as to which gender she chooses for her sexual partner, or was her preference of a sexual partner , male or female , predetermined at birth, just like her mind-sexuality was predetermined?
03-07-05, 06:04 PM MommyTimesTwo Gerry
Transexual deals with gender, not sexual proclivity.
A transexual is a person who was born into the body of the wrong sex. Like this example, of a female who was born with a male's body.
Sexuality, which is hetero/homo/bi/a sexualism, is a separate issue. A transexual can be any of the above: heterosexual (wanting the opposite sex from that which they are--meaning, this person would like boys); homosexual (wanting the same sex--in this instance, girls); bisexual (wanting either); asexual (wanting neither).
Sexuality is a separate issue from transexuality. Transexality is most bascially another gender--male, female, transexual, hermaphodite.
As for the second part of your question--is it programmed at birth--well honestly, no one knows for sure, though most scientists (not to mention, gay people) believe it is ingrained at birth. However, your sexual preference, again, is a separate issue from your sex/gender. Your sexual preference is malleable from life and experiences, to some degree. Your gender isn't.
Does this help?
03-07-05, 06:38 PM Kelleygirl I had a friend who was physically born a male but ever since she was about three everything about her was feminine; she developed into a woman emotionally, had a very ladylike voice, and had very little facial hair. She viewed her male genital as a "birth defect". She was the target of many cruel jokes -- so many not even trying to understand her dilemma. It was her dream to totally be a woman and undergo surgery. But since insurance doesn't cover this sort of operation which is very costly, she kept saving as much as she could. I really thought that nothing would stop her from getting "transformed" until the really awful appeared --- she discovered that she was HIV positive. It was such a blow to her--not only fighting this dread disease but trying to find a surgeon who would perform transexual operations on HIV patients --- practically non-existent. She went into a deep depression, started to miss taking her meds --just very sad. She died three months ago at the age of 35. I am so glad that I knew her; she showed me how what most of us take for granted, others have a living hell to try to obtain.
03-07-05, 09:03 PM DvdGStwrt Ok Gerry, lets turn your question around on you.
“Was it your choice as to which gender you preferred as your sexual partner, or was your preference of a sexual partner, male or female, predetermined at birth?”
I assume you are straight (forgive me if that assumption is wrong) Thus you are attracted to girls (Your profile says your male). At what point did you sit down and give it a long hard thinking before you decided that you would be attracted to girls over boys? I’m willing to bet that at best you only had a passing curiosity over what it would be like with a boy, but never really gave it much more than a thought and definitely would never act out on it – most likely the thought never crossed your mind, you just were attracted to girls as far back as you can remember. Maybe you can consider it in clinical terms, even picture yourself doing that – but are no more attracted to it than you are attracted to diving into a swimming pool filled with rusty double edged razor blades. Odds are you could physically perform with another man, reach climax – but that does not mean that you prefer to be with a man.
I’m willing to wager that you did not have to think about it at all, it just happened. Maybe long ago in your childhood you can pinpoint a specific instance where you pretty much knew that girls were the right thing for you, but you are at a loss as to why that is so.
So it is for everyone else. If you are straight bully for you, you get it pretty easy from there on out because you fit into the majority’s world view and no one will cause you to question why or how come you are attracted to girls. If you are gay or bi you might have to make some pretty hard choices, such as do you act out on your attraction? Do you come out about it? Is it “normal” is it “right”? If you are gay/bi you may opt to hide it, bury it, or pretend that you are straight to meet the expectations of others. You might even go so far as to live the straight life without once even acting on your true nature.
That is a choice in as much as one decides to pretend to be something they are not, this is not choosing to be attracted to men over women or women over men. No one just decides “Why heck, I’m bored with being straight, lets try out for the Gay Team.”
In the case of our boy girl, odds are he is straight (meaning a boy attracted to girls). Only because the percentages have more people as being heterosexual over other sexualities. If he remains in a girls body his choices would be a form of lesbianism (in that his female body would perform lesbian acts all along him being with a girl would be “straight” for him.
Or he would be “forced” into homosexual relations, meaning as a boy in a girl’s body he would be having sex with a man which would be as distasteful for him as it would be for you.
It is possible that he will be sexually oriented in any direction possible. Any way it falls he just is.
03-08-05, 09:33 AM MrsS Kelleygirl, I'm very sorry for your loss, and hope with all my heart that her soul is now housed in a form that fits.
03-08-05, 08:16 PM Kelleygirl Thanks for your thoughts, Mrs.S. You always say the perfect thing.
03-10-05, 07:16 AM gerry Thanks for your responses. I guess, as a male, I'm having trouble figuring out what it 'feels' like to be a female. The physical differences are obvious(sex organs, facial hair, voice pitch, skin softness, bone structure,etc.). The sexual orientation (homo, hetereo, bi, etc.)is immaterial. It's the 'emotional' or 'brain' part that confuses me. I mean, I can only feel like who I am, I can never feel what you feel like, regardless of your gender. Are we saying that girls prefer Barbie over GI Joe, cry more than boys, are more compassionate, more loving, more sensitive, etc., than boys? How about their biological make-up? Recently a science professor stated that there are more male scientists than female scientists, because a woman's biological make-up makes her less inclined to the sciences, and he had his head on the chopping block for making that statement, and had to make a public apology. But forgive me, maybe he was right?
03-10-05, 07:21 AM MommyTimesTwo Being a woman has nothing to do with Barbies or crying more. That's a sterotype.
There's really no way to explain what "being a woman" is any more than you could explain to me what being a man is. Can you tell me how it feels to be male? Can you tell me how you relate to the world, as a male, as opposed to being female? Well, I can't tell you either.
But I can tell you that Barbies or no Barbies, I am female, wholly so, and there's nothing male in me. And I also know that a man I knew who was transsexual, well, he felt the same way I do--he was female.
We shall have to chalk it up to something we can't know without knowing.
03-10-05, 07:27 AM gerry MX2
That's what I'm driving at. If there's no way to explain what it feels like to be a man, or what it feels like to be a woman, then how does a transexual know she feels like a gender opposite than what her body parts are telling her?
03-10-05, 07:35 AM MommyTimesTwo G
I'm not a transsexual. I can't tell you that. Like I said, it's something you can't know without knowing.
03-10-05, 08:16 AM gerry M*2
You're not a transexual, but you are a female. You said you knew a transexual man who felt like you do...a female. So tell me, if it's not barbies or emotions or sensitivity that makes you feel like a female, what does, other than your body parts and your knowledge of them?
03-10-05, 08:21 AM MommyTimesTwo The BoyGirl? Gerry
You're missing my point. I said, I am female, I know that. That is how I "feel female". I knew a transsexual man who was female. That is all he knew. We can't explain it to you, because it just is.
Can you tell me what makes you male? Is it power tools? Love of the remote? Those are simply stereotypes. It's the exact same question. You just are. There's no quantification of it.
03-10-05, 09:43 AM Sarai I think I see what you're saying MX2, and I'm sure you're right - none of us can probably relate to what it must feel like to be a transexual.
However, I went to the website that you offered, MX2. It is very interesting. I must admit, though, that I had the same reaction I think Gerry is having - confusion and concern about its implications about what makes someone "male" or "female". Here are some of the questions from the COGATI, a test to see if you are Male-to-female transgendered.
quote: Describe your relationship with mathematics.
Mathematics is both useful and fun. I enjoy mathematical puzzles. I hate doing math! It is both tedious and a struggle for me. I am really pretty good at math. I do math as it is required of me. Mathematics is somewhat difficult at times. It isn't my favorite thing.
You get a phone call from somebody you met for the first time a few days ago. How easy is it for you to remember who they are by the sound of their voice?
I can place them after a few seconds...I might have to think a bit. I would remember them pretty quickly. I am pretty good at placing voices. Pretty difficult, I don't know them. I wish they would tell me their name. Usually I know who they are after a minute or so. I think I could remember, given enough time on the phone.
You are shown a number of close-up photographs of the faces of many different people you do not know. You are asked to describe the emotions that the people are feeling by the expressions on their faces alone. How well would you do, do you think?
I could probably guess most of them. Probably. I would be able to get most of them right, I think. I would definitely know what most of the people were feeling. Just look at their face! Probably not that well. It is hard to read faces, you never really know for sure. I would have a little difficulty with that. It's not that easy.
You are at a meeting. Everyone at the meeting is the same sex as you. The leader of the meeting announces that it's time for hugs all around! How do you feel about this?
What is up with all of this hugging stuff? This is unnecessary. It's kind of nice. No big deal though. It might be OK. I would feel a little put off by it, frankly. I love hugs! Good idea.
As a child, when you played with close friends, how would you describe the type of play you liked to be a part of the most?
Toys were fun, we would play games where we would pretend a lot. I liked neat toys, and we would ride bikes or play ball games. I liked to be pretty active. I liked cool toys too, and we would build forts. I liked to get out and do things. Run, jump, and yell. Let off some steam. We would make up stories about ourselves and our toys. We would talk and sing too.
I think it's pretty obvious from this test which answers are more "female" and which are more "male." However, it seems based on stereotypes to me. Also, it seems to me that many of these behaviors (such as how we play games) must be largely created by society. I used to enjoy playing "boy's" games, but since most of my friends were girls, we tended to play "girl's" games. Honestly, I generally preferred "girl's" games (you never saw a bigger Barbie fan than little Sarai), but I think that the fact that I was encouraged to play with dolls and with other girls who were also encouraged to play with dolls had a big impact on the games I liked to play. Had I been raised around more boys and been more encouraged to play with them in their games, however, I have little doubt that I would have been a bit more of a tomboy. When I was invited to play "kick the can" or whatever the neighborhood boys were doing, I always had fun. I could have been a tomboy in the right environment, I think. At what point does being a tomboy become a female-to-male transgendered person? And how can we be sure it is physiological and not a psychological issue or the result of something unusual in the environment?
I also took the test to see which gender I am here . It also was filled with questions that seemed pretty stereotypical. My score said that if I have the body of a man, I'm a normal man in my brain AND that if I have the body of a woman, I'm a normal woman in my brain!
Although it didn't say so, based on the scores (40 for a man and 70 for a woman), it looks like I'm on the low end of normal manliness and on the average end of normal womanliness.
It was often very clear to me which questions I answered in a more "manly" way and which ones I answered in a more "womanly" way, but often seemed so stereotypical. If I were more timid about parking a car and more excited about answering the phone, according to that test, I'd be more of a woman.
03-10-05, 10:23 AM MommyTimesTwo See Sarai, you just highlighted one of the biggest problems when it comes to dealing with issues like transsexuality. Even many people who are transsexed can't separate what is to be a woman, and the stereotypes of "womanhood". It's just silly to say that women aren't good at math--I'm female, and I'm an accountant! Girls that are bad at math for being "girls" are so because of societal pressures, not because of breasts and estrogen.
The cause of all these problems, and the reliance on stereotypes, is very simple. No one knows what makes one a man or a woman. So we fall back on stereotypes and pat answers, so that we have something to say.
In truth, no one knows and I doubt anyone will ever know.
03-10-05, 11:42 AM MrsS I took the test, and my results don't surprise me in the least... If you are Male... Your score is 65 Feminine Male You score significantly more feminine than the average male. Male scores above 60 may show a brain sex bias to the female.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you are Female... Your score is 90 Normal Female You score within the expected bounds of the average female. Most females will score between 50 and 100. I, mercifully, have never suffered gender dysphoria. I have had several transgendered friends over the years and through their candor, I can empathize to a degree with the sheer hell of feeling that your own body is a betrayal of your identity.I strongly prefer the term "Transgender" over the term "Transexual" as gender is, I feel, more accurately reflective of internal identity...the plumbing is not the definition , in itself, of gender, as this discussion is showing very clearly.
03-10-05, 04:01 PM gerry
quote: Originally posted by MommyTimesTwo: And I also know that a man I knew who was transsexual, well, he felt the same way I do--he was female.
Okay, if you know that he felt the same way you do, you must have discussed those feelings, so again I ask.."What are those feelings?".
03-10-05, 05:39 PM MommyTimesTwo Gerry
"I am female". That's it. At least, that is all that could be put into words. As I keep saying, there is no way to describe it, unless you have felt it. That is what I have been told, and that is what I can understand--I can't tell you what it's like to be female. I just am. No matter how many times you ask me, the answer will remain the same--no one knows. Smile
03-10-05, 05:42 PM MommyTimesTwo If you are Male... Your score is 70
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you are Female... Your score is 100
Feminine Male You score significantly more feminine than the average male. Male scores above 60 may show a brain sex bias to the female. Extremely Female You score significantly more feminine than even the average female. A score above 100 points to a very differently wired brain than that of the opposite sex . . . yet differences also attract.
I am more feminine than the average female. And yet, still an accountant. Sweet! Big Grin
If you are Male... Your score is 0
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you are Female... Your score is 10
Normal Male You score within the expected bounds of the average male. Most males will score between 0 and 60. Masculine Female You score significantly more masculine than the average female. Female scores below 50 may show a brain sex bias to the male.
And that was my husband's. Totally totally male, but can't do math. Guess that's one disproven stereotype. Wink
03-10-05, 06:43 PM DvdGStwrt God I love tests:
I scored 20 as a male 30 as a female.
What does that mean?
I suppose that 0 would make me pure man? LOL
03-10-05, 06:46 PM DvdGStwrt Gerry, if it didn't matter then why did you ask twice? Are you confused over sexuality and gender?
In later posts you go on to ask how a person knows if they are a man or a woman in the wrong body.
Again I have to ask you to turn the question on yourself, how do you know that you are in the right body? You just know. A trangendered just knows that they are in the wrong body.
The truth is you can't just walk into the doctors office and declare yourself a female and have the operation. It takes years of counseling and tests and a lot of other legal and medical loop holes before you are deemed transgendered. In the end it is at best an educated guess that the operation is needed because no one can fully understand how a person feels inside.
David
03-10-05, 11:03 PM gerry David, I don't buy it. Yes, I know I am a male because I have facial hair, a male organ, nipples and not breasts, smelly armpits, and rough skin. Otherwise, I can't tell you OR myself what it feels like to be a male. And no, I am not confused between gender and sexuality, my sexual preference, be it homo, hetero, bi, or none of the above, is of no consequence to my 'masculinity'. What confuses me, however, is that while you or I or MX2 can never explain what it feels like to be a male or female, somehow, a transexual (better called a trasgendered as noted earlier) CAN explain it, even as young as age 3 (!), and the only explanation I can give for it is that they are uncomfortable with their body parts, and nothing more. Therefore, I submit, for example, for further discussion, that a female brained male bodied transexual...a female trapped in a male body....knows that she is transexual because she is uncomfortable with that male organ or other male bodily features, and it's got nothing to do with compassion, love for Barbie, inability to park a car in reverse, love for the telephone, strong emotions, etc. To put it bluntly , she wants a vagina and not a penis, although her sexual preference can , as you stated, go in any direction. I want it clearly understood that i am not confusing sexuality with gender, I'm just stating a fact that males have penises and females don't, and therein lies the differences between the genders, along with the other bodily parts I mentioned, and nothing else.
03-10-05, 11:24 PM gerry P.S: I scored a 5, practicaly as pure a male as Mr. MX2, and I'm feeling real good about myself right now. Big Grin
03-10-05, 11:59 PM DvdGStwrt I suppose for a Male who desires to be a girl, looking in the mirror in horror at the thing between his legs is a clue.
Or for a girl who wants to be a boy seeing the lack of that thing...
And that may be the differnce.
03-11-05, 06:48 AM MommyTimesTwo Gerry
I'm still trying to think of a way to express what was expressed to me, and I know I'm doing a really crappy job at it.
It's like this. I'm white. I could take pills like "Black Like Me", I could do everything possible to be like a black person, but I'm never going to be a black person.
Or I could move to England. I could study British English and diction, learn everything possible about England, even learn to eat kidney pie. But no matter what I do, I am always going to be American, even if I change my citizenship.
It's like that. Something immutable inside your mind that tells you what you are, and what you aren't. I think I understand it better than perhaps the average correct-gendered person, 'cept MrsS, but no one who hasn't been in that situation can really understand what makes them know they are in the wrong body.
As for the test, my husband and I had a really good, almost cathartic, laugh over it. It kind of explained why we have the conflicts we have, honestly, as trite as that sounds. Though we both picked "Back up--carefully". On all but three, we picked the exact opposite answers. So whether or not that test actually measures your mental gender, it certainly made for a great personality test!
(We especially laughed at the one about locating the cat's meow. I am known for finding misplaced cats. They just seem to find me, honestly. But my husband, if I don't point it out, he doesn't even hear the meow. He loves cats, he's just oblivious!)
03-11-05, 10:26 AM frankvan Sexuality, Gender, transgendered, hetero or homo, physical or psychological, etc., etc. Cogiati test results? I can't be bothered taking any tests. They are time consuming and I have no interest in establishing any score or confirming any suspicion. I believe I KNOW what and who I am. In other words I'm fairly sure that I haven't any remaining unresolved conflicts concerning my sexual identity. I believe that confirmation of one's "maleness" or "femaleness" is only necessary when one is not quite sure. I can remember how, in my youth, I got into un-winnable fights, for no good reason other than to prove my masculinity. One didn't dare to admit to any feelings, traits, or interests that could be considered "unmanly". Gentler or more sensitive proclivities had to be avoided like the plague, especially in public, or expect ridicule. What I am trying to say is that a lot of the stereotypical labels, peer pressures, generational and societal progress, contribute to the formation of who and what the end product becomes. We are either conflicted or not at various periods in our lives, by the interaction between what nature has provided or deprived us of, and what external influences we encounter.
Education also, surely plays a part, as does experience. I believe that the civil rights movement has provided some hard fought results in which even the most bigoted among us have been obliged to live next door to, attend schools with, and learn to KNOW people of other race. We may still have a long way to go, but we have seen tolerance grow during my lifetime and some of the same mechanism has resulted in greater tolerance of those whose sexual orientation differs from our own. I am trying to contribute something positive to this topic and I realize, at the same time, that I may only create puzzlement. Chalk it up to rampant senility on my part. If nothing else we are all sexual animals, and very complex creatures, at that. So it is best not to attach labels to ourselves or others. If we can be comfortable and accepting of ourselves we are fortunate, and more apt to be tolerant of others. If we are still somewhat conflicted at twenty or thirty, patience --where there's life. there's hope. Wink
03-11-05, 11:06 AM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by frankvan: Sexuality, Gender, transgendered, hetero or homo, physical or psychological, etc., etc. Cogiati test results? I can't be bothered taking any tests. They are time consuming and I have no interest in establishing any score or confirming any suspicion. I believe I KNOW what and who I am. In other words I'm fairly sure that I haven't any remaining unresolved conflicts concerning my sexual identity.
I agree, Frank - and those tests are designed just for that. But I think you missed the point. The reason I took it isn't because of any uncertainty, and I'm sure the same is true for the others. The reason I took it was because I was curious how a psychologist determines whether someone is "boy-brained" or "girl-brained." The fact that I tested to be a normal "woman" doesn't prove anything except that I happen to live up to certain stereotypes of what a woman is. I happen to fit many of our society's stereotypes of what is "feminine." Is that because I "naturally" care about people's feelings and am good at spelling, or is that because I was encouraged as a child to play games that teach sympathy and to spend more time indoors reading books than my brothers, who might have been teased by other kids for spending as much of their time on such activities as I did? Is it possible that I also fit some stereotypes of what is "masculine" not because of nature, but because I was raised with brothers and was a bit rebellious as a child - meaning that I sometimes rebelled against what was expected of me?
It was very clear to me which answers were more "masculine," because they were based on stereotypes.
My point was that questions like how we chose to play as a child are irrelevant. I liked to play pretend, but I think that was environmental as much as anything else. If a boy who likes to sing and pretend is more "feminine," perhaps that indicates what our society thinks is "feminine" more than anything else. Perhaps that also indicates something about how we were raised, and what we received praised and attention for doing, also.
It worries me to think that children could be declared a different gender based on such tests.
quote: So it is best not to attach labels to ourselves or others. If we can be comfortable and accepting of ourselves we are fortunate, and more apt to be tolerant of others. If we are still somewhat conflicted at twenty or thirty, patience --where there's life. there's hope.
I agree that we should be tolerant of others. This isn't about tolerance or intolerance. If someone believes they're a man trapped in a woman's body and wants to change sexes, that doesn't bother me at all. I'm not sure that such a monumental decision should be made at age 9, however.
03-11-05, 12:05 PM MommyTimesTwo
quote: The fact that I tested to be a normal "woman" doesn't prove anything except that I happen to live up to certain stereotypes of what a woman is.
You know, I really didn't see where there were "stereotypes" in that test, even though I know you said that before too. I saw where there were psychological realities that have been reduced in some parts to stereotypes by our society, and that those psychological realities were couched in situational questions that could be thought to be "stereotypical" if you didn't know the psychological basis of the question, but I did not see stereotypes.
I did not see, for example "Did you play with Barbies or GI Joe?" I saw a question dealing with cognition and memory for sounds and facial features, as it is a psychological fact that the female brain remembers sounds and facial features better than the male brain. I did not see "Are you a bad driver?" I saw a question that asked how well you can back into a space, as it is also a psychological fact that the male brain is generally better at dealing with spacial relationships than the female brain. It is the way we are wired.
What exactly were the stereotypes that you have mentioned?
03-11-05, 12:27 PM Sarai You picked up on them, too, MX2. In the Cogiati test, you took exception to the first question about mathematical skill. I pointed out also what kinds of games we played as kids (girls like to "make up stories" and talk and sing while boys like to "Run, jump, and yell. Let off some steam."). I think all five questions that I posted in that first post are stereotypical (is it not a stereotype that women like to hug and touch and men don't?).
From the other test, these are the implications of the questions:
Question #2: Women are more musical and men are less musical.(how do we know this is innate, and not encouraged by the activities we are encouraged to participate in as children?)
Question #4: Women have more intuition than men. (how do we know this is innate, and not encouraged by the activities we are encouraged to participate in as children?)
Question #6: Women are better at spelling and writing than men (how do we know this is innate, and not encouraged by the activities we are encouraged to participate in as children?).
Question #7: Men are bigger risk-takers. (how do we know this is innate, and not encouraged by the activities we are encouraged to participate in as children?)
Question #8: Men are better at directing themselves. (how do we know this is innate, and not encouraged by the activities we are encouraged to participate in as children?)
Question #9: Men don't like close proximity to people (this one is definitely societal, in my opinion)
03-11-05, 01:00 PM MommyTimesTwo There wasn't a mathematical question on the test Sarai. I was making a joke about the stereotype, because I got such a high female score and am an accountant.
I did not see where it said women were more musical. I saw where it asked about remembering music, which goes back to that memory for sounds that I mentioned.
I did not see intuition. I saw one that implied being able to read facial and body expressions. That is not intuition, and goes back to the facial features thing I mentioned in my last post.
As for writing and spelling, aren't you assuming which one is the "right" answer for women, and which for men? It didn't say. Unless you know which one made you score higher as a woman, you can't criticise the question's assumptions. The same goes for 7 and 8. The questions did not tell you which answers were for men or for women. You are assuming that the ones you think are stereotypical are the ones the test scored you on.
As for question 9, again, you don't know which one was the "right" answer for men and women.
If you don't know what the test scored each answer as, how can you possibly make a judgement as to whether or not it is based on stereotypes?? You don't even know if your assumptions are correct.
03-11-05, 02:24 PM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by MommyTimesTwo: There wasn't a mathematical question on the test Sarai. I was making a joke about the stereotype, because I got such a high female score and am an accountant.
Not on the test we took, but on the COGIATI test (which tests to see if you are a male-to-female transgendered person). It is the very first question, which I posted above:
"Describe your relationship with mathematics.
Mathematics is both useful and fun. I enjoy mathematical puzzles. I hate doing math! It is both tedious and a struggle for me. I am really pretty good at math. I do math as it is required of me. Mathematics is somewhat difficult at times. It isn't my favorite thing. "
quote: I did not see where it said women were more musical. I saw where it asked about remembering music, which goes back to that memory for sounds that I mentioned.
I suspect that if women are better at remembering sounds, it has to do with the types of activities little girls are encouraged to do and the way we interact with them.
quote: If you don't know what the test scored each answer as, how can you possibly make a judgement as to whether or not it is based on stereotypes?? You don't even know if your assumptions are correct.
Because it's obvious! Smile But just to check, I just went back and took the quiz twice. First, I answered the "most male" way. I got:
quote: If you are Male... Your score is -30
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you are Female... Your score is -30
Extremely Male You score significantly more masculine than even the average male. A score below 0 points to a very differently wired brain than that of the opposite sex . . . yet differences also attract. Masculine Female You score significantly more masculine than the average female. Female scores below 50 may show a brain sex bias to the male.
Then I answered everything the "most female" way. I got:
quote: If you are Male... Your score is 70
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you are Female... Your score is 110
Feminine Male You score significantly more feminine than the average male. Male scores above 60 may show a brain sex bias to the female. Extremely Female You score significantly more feminine than even the average female. A score above 100 points to a very differently wired brain than that of the opposite sex . . . yet differences also attract.
How do I know which is which? Because I know that the stereotypical man is very practical, is action-oriented, doesn't like physical contact that isn't sex with a woman, and can always find north. I know that the stereotypical woman is intuitive, people-oriented, loves non-sexual physical contact, and can't find her way out of a telephone booth. Wink
03-11-05, 02:50 PM frankvan
quote: I agree, Frank - and those tests are designed just for that. But I think you missed the point. The reason I took it isn't because of any uncertainty, and I'm sure the same is true for the others.
I never meant to suggest that you, or anyone else took the test because of uncertainty. If I had more time to devote to the thing I might have taken it anyway, just out of curiosity. But I frankly believe that unless one is seriously troubled or terribly naive it is difficult to put much faith in the value of such a test. I'm sure that we are all sufficiently familiar with the stereotypes that either consciously or unconsciously we could steer the result to the desired outcome. I suppose that if I were actually a candidate for a sex change and took the test, it might be of some use. But I rather think that in that case I could steer the thing to obtain the desired result - maybe that IS the purpose. Apart from intellectual curiosity I guess it might be reassuring to some who are able to confirm the compatablity of their thoughts and their genitalia as being within acceptable (for them) ranges.
The BoyGirl?
quote: How do I know which is which? Because I know that the stereotypical man is very practical, is action-oriented, doesn't like physical contact that isn't sex with a woman, and can always find north. I know that the stereotypical woman is intuitive, people-oriented, loves non-sexual physical contact, and can't find her way out of a telephone booth.
Well that's bull crap in a bucket. My score said I am about as female as is possible to be, 100, and I answered that I don't remember songs, I don't remember faces or voices well, I can seldom detect a clandestine relationship, I can't spell, I can find north if given a moment to think, and I don't like sitting close to strangers.
So if I answered your "typically male" way, how did I get the most female score possible?
03-11-05, 03:19 PM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by MommyTimesTwo: My score said I am about as female as is possible to be, 100, and I answered that I don't remember songs, I don't remember faces or voices well, I can seldom detect a clandestine relationship, I can't spell, I can find north if given a moment to think, and I don't like sitting close to strangers.
Maybe you should take the test again and record your answers. Perhaps you made a mistake? I just took the test with the answers you say you gave and made all the rest "typically female" and got
quote: If you are Male... Your score is 10
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you are Female... Your score is 20
Normal Male You score within the expected bounds of the average male. Most males will score between 0 and 60. Masculine Female You score significantly more masculine than the average female. Female scores below 50 may show a brain sex bias to the male.
quote: So if I answered your "typically male" way, how did I get the most female score possible?
Either you made a mistake somewhere, you forgot what you actually answered, or else you answered those questions in the middle (not extremely male or female) and all the rest very female. Take the test again and record what answers you gave.
quote: That's bull crap in a bucket.
I agree (and love that expression! LOL, Mx2! Smile)... if you meant the test (I suspect you didn't mean the test, but I really liked your phrase, so I stole it! Hee hee).
That's why I don't know that it is right to have 9 year olds change their genders. Adults can do anything they want based on how they feel, but a child can go through many phases and many feelings. How can a test - or even many tests- determine if a girl is simply a "tom-boy" or is really a boy? In my opinion, a boy has a penis. A girl is not a boy, no matter how much she likes math or how well she can identify North or how badly she can intuit things.
I suppose the answer is that it shouldn't matter how children dress or act. If a little boy wants to wear dresses and sing songs and play pretend, he should be allowed to, and not made ashamed for it. Being a boy does not mean one has to act a certain way. Likewise, if a little girl wants to climb trees and wear pants and keep her hair cut short, she should be allowed to. "He" and "She" describes the plumbing, in my opinion. The rest is just stereotypes and societal expectations.
03-11-05, 03:33 PM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by MommyTimesTwo: So if I answered your "typically male" way, how did I get the most female score possible?
They aren't my "typically male way". They are the test's "typically male way", determined by what society calls the "typically male way." I know that my understanding of male stereotypes matches the test's because when I answered as a stereotypical male, the test declared those answers as "extremely male."
03-11-05, 03:35 PM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by frankvan: But I frankly believe that unless one is seriously troubled or terribly naive it is difficult to put much faith in the value of such a test.
I agree. I see a lot of problems with the tests, and therefore have a lot of doubt that science or psychologists should be in a position to tell parents and teachers to start calling a little girl a little boy.
03-11-05, 03:57 PM MommyTimesTwo Sarai
The mistake I think you're making is that you are assuming 1) that there are "male" and "female" answers and 2) that the scoring is like scoring a quiz in a magazine, with all As being worth so many points.
I think it's scored on combinations of answers, which if you have A and B and not C, you are more female than if you have A and C but not B.
And I will not take it again. I'm not going to prove myself female. That's insulting. Red Face
03-11-05, 04:02 PM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by MommyTimesTwo: Sarai
The mistake I think you're making is that you are assuming 1) that there are "male" and "female" answers and 2) that the scoring is like scoring a quiz in a magazine, with all As being worth so many points.
I think it's scored on combinations of answers, which if you have A and B and not C, you are more female than if you have A and C but not B.
And I will not take it again. I'm not going to prove myself female. That's insulting. Red Face
I'm not telling you to take it to "prove that you're female." I think the test is a bucket of bull crap Wink, so I don't think the score indicates anything significant about your gender. I think the test is like a Cosmo magazine test, and I think you should take it again to see for yourself the truth of what I'm saying, or if I'm wrong, to prove to me that it is possible to give the answers you say you gave and to get 100 (by posting all of the answers you choose so that others can replicate them and see the same score).
You must be remembering differently than you really answered. If you really answered as you said you did, you could not possibly have gotten the score of 100 - unless I'm wrong, which you could easily prove if you're correct.
But I don't care if you take it again - I just meant if you want to convince me of what you're saying. I'm perfectly satisfied with my theory that the test is filled with bucket-of-bull-crapness. Big GrinWinkSmile
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sarai, 03-11-05 04:37 PM
03-11-05, 07:17 PM MommyTimesTwo Okay, I refuse on the grounds that I want to keep seeing you fit 'bucket of bull crap' into as many sentences as possible Big Grin
But actually, no, it's a moot point. The question is not if the sample part of a test given on that site is accurate, it is "how does one feel male or female?" The test doesn't answer that question one way or the other.
03-11-05, 09:02 PM Sarai
quote: Originally posted by MommyTimesTwo: Okay, I refuse on the grounds that I want to keep seeing you fit 'bucket of bull crap' into as many sentences as possible Big Grin
But actually, no, it's a moot point. The question is not if the sample part of a test given on that site is accurate, it is "how does one feel male or female?" The test doesn't answer that question one way or the other.
Well, that's very un-bucket-full-of-crappish of you. Big Grin
I agree that the test doesn't answer the question. As you said earlier, probably no on can or ever will - including psychologists and neurologists and test-makers of all stripes. So I guess we agree after all.
03-11-05, 10:29 PM gerry
quote: Originally posted by MommyTimesTwo: She's transsexual.
Info.
I just took some time to read the very interesting story written by a female trapped in male body, as provided by MX2 in the link above. Besides the sexual parts, body hairs, skin texture, etc., here's my summary of what she says it feels like to be a female at ages 5 through adolescence:
- a female is sweet, kind, and gentle (boys are mean, hittting, shouting, and loud) - she enjoys playing with girls more than boys - enjoys dancing and singing -teacher's helper - prefers stuffed animals over GI Joe- - abhors violence, fighting, roughness, etc.
So there you have it...the female is indeed the gentler sex...er, gender. But caution, this male bodied female was constantly beaten and tormented by her father at an early age, and she hated him, despised him, for it, so I don't know whether this was a factor. She did start to grow breasts during estrogen treatment for acne,prior to her ultimat
This message has been edited. Last edited by: DorianGreyed,
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