I attempted posting this question on other forums and boards and I fear that the question itself draws negatives of "concentration camp" nature.

This is a thought experiment only. It seeks to understand the fundamental differences of Gay Society compared to Straight Society. Since society is a complex thing I leave it open ended and in general broad terms:

"What would a Gay nation be like, politically, socially, where would it locate itself, how would it manifest or create itself? All comments of a serious nature are welcomed."

My guess is that it would be more or less the same as the society we have now...There would most likely be discrimination within the gay society itself...who is "gayer" etc...I think it is human nature.

As Kitty implies, societies tend to evolve into hierarchies: economic, religious, racial. Who knows in this case? Gender-based? Dominant/passive? Or maybe economic, religious, racial.

Hi David,

Long time no see.

The society couldn't survive if they couldn't reproduce.

I could see people cheating with an opposite sex member and being outcasted for that. They would try to fight for their rights and have straight night clubs. I think they would face public ridicule, discrimination and fear. I think they will argue that they didn't CHOOSE to be with an opposite partner, they were born that way. I think the gay church would banish the non gays to hell. Society and the church rule the land. I think the church would make the laws. I agree that people are people. The society would be based on power, money and sex.

On the lighter side: I think all the land would have beautifully landscaped lawns.

Eventually, heterophobia would become as sadly commonplace as homophobia is now... in the time I spent in the Castro district, I got small tastes of the "you don't belong here" vibe... nothing drastic, just a subtle shunning and an oddly solicitious attitude that implied I must have gotten lost each time I ventured out alone.. It gave me a small idea of what it must be to be gay in a predominantly straight society... and tipped me that reversing the scales would not solve anything for long... except that it would, esthetically, be a far better world with more honest auto mechanics and decent restaurants open past 10 pm.

Hm. Then I am not alone in the general feeling that it would in fact be a reflection of the society in existence today, just more or less geared at bigotry in another direction.

Yes. I agree with the gist of what is being said. My cynicism can even see someone winning office on the promise of changing the constitution to outlaw opposite-sex marriage. Society naturally seems to tend toward some form of exclusionism... it just does, and I think one can be certain that in a "Gay Nation" the same ugly face of hatred would show itself.

My first thought echoes what clare has already said. How would it sustain itself absent reproduction? If adopting children from other nations became the norm, and if homosexuality is, as some claim, a genetic pre-disposition, would the majority of the children then become outcasts?

quote:

Originally posted by coldfuse:
My first thought echoes what clare has already said. How would it sustain itself absent reproduction? If adopting children from other nations became the norm, and if homosexuality is, as some claim, a genetic pre-disposition, would the majority of the children then become outcasts?

Would they? What about the small fact that 6.5 billion plus people in the world is growing and as they procreate more GLBT arrive on Planet Earth? Would adoption of other children from around the world be needed? After all the GLBT community are able and have demonstrated that they can make their own babies - if not the old fashioned method then with the use of syringe.

Perhaps it is folly of me, but I have to wonder if a GLBT society would be more open having lived with outright hostility for hundreds if not thousands of years?

I would suspect that those GLBT peoples in "free" societies where they do not face persecution would stay where they are, while those who face the most persecution would seek a safe haven thus the GLBT nation would refresh its population upon the lives of those.

I think a gay country could sustain itself by immigration. Sexual reproduction becomes a problem because any child growing up in a gay nation would be pressured to conform and become a gay regardless of his/her personal preference. Just as in our society we 'prefer' that the child grow up straight. And we're right to do that, to a certain extent, because we understand -- and the child does not -- the problems of someone who marches to a different drum. Still, Crow James.

quote:

Perhaps it is folly of me, but I have to wonder if a GLBT society would be more open having lived with outright hostility for hundreds if not thousands of years?

I think that at some point people would play the race gay card with people who are straight. I think children who did wrong would blame the gay discrimination of their grandparents. There would be a certain quota of gays who must be hired. Highly qualified heterosexuals would be denied positions to fulfill quotas.

quote:

What would a Gay nation be like, politically, socially, where would it locate itself, how would it manifest or create itself?

1. Gay nation politically. I don't see a difference. I think the crooked gay people would win in office just as the crooked straight people. I just think it would be Bill and Bob getting caught in the oval office.

2. Gay nation socially. We have already addressed some social aspects. I think religion would still have the problems it does today. What about the bible? Maybe a Queen James version would be created. It would still be religion against religion. In beginning God created Adam and Steve. I'm not sure about procreation. That would take some imagination. I think the gay society will find other things to discriminate against. Age, weight, disability, family origin and religion.

3. Where would it locate itself? This question reminds me of sending people away from civilization. It almost implies there is something wrong with being gay and those "people" need their own island. I was thinking more along the lines of the nation we have now becoming gay. I was also thinking the mindset of gay acceptance and how that would affect society. (I think that would have been a much more realistic question)

4. How would it manifest or create itself? All gay people would have to move to an island. (keep the breeders out) They would have to find a way to artificially inseminate the lesbians who would carry the babies for everyone. I'm not sure what would happen if a women refused to carry a child for the group. Would she then be an outcast? What if one got pregnant? Oops. Is that an instant shunning?


I think the question is based on the idea that everyone in the society wants to be gay and have their own world. The more I answer this question, I tend to believe that nothing would be different except for who you sleep with.

Okay... Clare's comments about an island have made me more receptive to the whole concept... I make a motion that a decent sized Carribbian island be aquired post haste and turned into a haven for homosexuals- BUT- I want a permanent visa that allows me to winter there!
All tourists would be required to pass a temperment test to assure the consulate that they are gay friendly and hold their liquor well. (Hey, some industry will be needed, and high end tourism yields maximum net profit for a relative minimum of impact)

On a more serious note- Would bisexuals be any more welcome than they are now? Overall, the most common complaint from my bi friends is that straight people consider them queer, and the gay community feels that they are closeted and just maintaining the social privilege of being straight... would this gay majority society be any more forgiving?

There is no reason why a gay-nation would be childless or need to adopt. There have been many lesbian relationships where one receives artificial insemination and has a child. I personally have a lesbian friend who did this, because although she's a lesbian, she still wanted to have a child. I imagine adoption or surrogacy would be the way the gay men would have to go, but it would still be possible.

David - what an interesting subject!

I think a gay nation might work, but it begs some devil's advocacy. How would you feel about:

- a straight nation?
- a white nation?
- a black nation?
- a female nation?
- a male nation?

Are there models for these already, or historically? How about nations where the official religion is legislated and enforced?

quote:

Originally posted by babthrower:
I think a gay country could sustain itself by immigration. Sexual reproduction becomes a problem because any child growing up in a gay nation would be pressured to conform and become a gay regardless of his/her personal preference. Just as in our society we 'prefer' that the child grow up straight. And we're right to do that, to a certain extent, because we understand -- and the child does not -- the problems of someone who marches to a different drum. Still, Crow James.

I wonder if this is true - After all it does not happen in current gay families where the parents tend to be more open and liberal about sexual identities and accept the child no matter where they fall when it comes to sexual identity.

quote:

Originally posted by clarebear:

quote:

Perhaps it is folly of me, but I have to wonder if a GLBT society would be more open having lived with outright hostility for hundreds if not thousands of years?

I think that at some point people would play the race gay card with people who are straight. I think children who did wrong would blame the gay discrimination of their grandparents. There would be a certain quota of gays who must be hired. Highly qualified heterosexuals would be denied positions to fulfill quotas.

quote:

What would a Gay nation be like, politically, socially, where would it locate itself, how would it manifest or create itself?

1. Gay nation politically. I don't see a difference. I think the crooked gay people would win in office just as the crooked straight people. I just think it would be Bill and Bob getting caught in the oval office.

2. Gay nation socially. We have already addressed some social aspects. I think religion would still have the problems it does today. What about the bible? Maybe a Queen James version would be created. It would still be religion against religion. In beginning God created Adam and Steve. I'm not sure about procreation. That would take some imagination. I think the gay society will find other things to discriminate against. Age, weight, disability, family origin and religion.

3. Where would it locate itself? This question reminds me of sending people away from civilization. It almost implies there is something wrong with being gay and those "people" need their own island. I was thinking more along the lines of the nation we have now becoming gay. I was also thinking the mindset of gay acceptance and how that would affect society. (I think that would have been a much more realistic question)

4. How would it manifest or create itself? All gay people would have to move to an island. (keep the breeders out) They would have to find a way to artificially inseminate the lesbians who would carry the babies for everyone. I'm not sure what would happen if a women refused to carry a child for the group. Would she then be an outcast? What if one got pregnant? Oops. Is that an instant shunning?


I think the question is based on the idea that everyone in the society wants to be gay and have their own world. The more I answer this question, I tend to believe that nothing would be different except for who you sleep with.

1. There is that, however the "Straight world" appears to accept and function to a degree with the systems of corruption - er government - they have. Does a gay nation have to subscribe to the leadership of One Person? Can not a counsel of Six (Reflecting the rainbow) function as leadership followed by representatives of communities? I do not think that that has been tried yet. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely is truth.

2. Queen James Version? Is there really a need for that? You do understand that with in the GLBT community there are GLBT of Faith who have found acceptance in their Holy Scriptures. Look up the Term Gay Christians - you will find that there are many of us out there and we have a series of arguments against the exclusionary, damned to hell interpretation of the bible for GLBT.

And yes gays are not immune to discrimination, however we can assume that the Nation would take with it some of the social and civil reforms that some nations enjoy which allow equality.

3. Most likely based on an island or a chain of islands in the pacific Near or on the Equator. Although there are tiny islands with no readily available resources (food, water) technological developments are presently used which not only create fresh water but electricity as well.

The Dutch, Canadians and others have recently started making floating homes. These are not house boats, these are structures which have a "solid" base of foam surrounded by reinforced concrete. Further many plans have been on the table for floating platforms of various grand sizes - The potential is there to create land area - further Mari-culture and extraction of minerals and metals from ocean water is possible. One such method of creating usable material from sea water can be found in Bio-Rock: http://www.biorock.net/ Although mostly used for growing new reefs, it has been tested and used to grow a "concrete" around decaying piers to support them, There is an island being grown by a man who sees the potential for this method in construction and mineral "mining" of the sea.

4. All gay people? Why all? Many GlBT in the "free world" are comfortable there, but still there are many others who live in countries where Death, imprisonment and other bad things are the reward for being gay. Would "breeders" desire to live with the gays or would they decide that they are best in their own "element"?

quote:

Originally posted by MrsS:
Okay... Clare's comments about an island have made me more receptive to the whole concept... I make a motion that a decent sized Carribbian island be aquired post haste and turned into a haven for homosexuals- BUT- I want a permanent visa that allows me to winter there!
All tourists would be required to pass a temperment test to assure the consulate that they are gay friendly and hold their liquor well. (Hey, some industry will be needed, and high end tourism yields maximum net profit for a relative minimum of impact)

On a more serious note- Would bisexuals be any more welcome than they are now? Overall, the most common complaint from my bi friends is that straight people consider them queer, and the gay community feels that they are closeted and just maintaining the social privilege of being straight... would this gay majority society be any more forgiving?

I think that it is the Hetero-centric "We v Them" aspect of current societies that causes this rift between Bi and Gay - Gays are hard pressed to have an individual identity against a hetero-world - bis can easily slip in and out of both sides. We can be certain that there would be at best an equal number of GLBT (all groups) with subgroups in side of those based on other things.

I think that tourists would by their natures "weed" themselves out. If I didn't like the Swedes I would not go to Sweden

As I stated before it would most likely be a chain of small islands - uncontested or land which is small and is considered unusable. Taking a state or established nation is not only wrong, but would result in 75% of the world joining a Coalition of the Most Willing to stamp us out. Although Canada may be a good place to buy some land from, there are some reservations on just how far Canadians will tolerate gay neighbors

As for a visa, we would expect that tourist trade would be one of the industries - Imagine a land of bed and breakfasts

Seriously, since it would most likely be island based or mostly sea based Mariculture (Marine farming) tourist trade would most likely be the main industries. There is no way that the Gay nation could be 100% self sufficient and retain a "first world" way of life - technology, education, medicine, etc. It would have to generate funds from the global market somehow in order to import medicines, computers, blah.

An interesting aspect of a GLBT nation may be a direct impact on the physcial formation of the nations, most of us in the GLBT are "tree-huggers" Green to the bone.

quote:

Originally posted by gizmogram:
There is no reason why a gay-nation would be childless or need to adopt. There have been many lesbian relationships where one receives artificial insemination and has a child. I personally have a lesbian friend who did this, because although she's a lesbian, she still wanted to have a child. I imagine adoption or surrogacy would be the way the gay men would have to go, but it would still be possible.

David - what an interesting subject!

True. And we can assume a willing population of immigrants - most likely from those nations that are down on GLBT - you know those that will imprison you or kill you for being GLBT While "free" nation GLBT will choose to remain home and fight for the Cause and win equality issues at home. I can't imagine Canadians having a reason to leave Canada for a Gay Homeland - except for vacation.

quote:

Originally posted by coldfuse:
I think a gay nation might work, but it begs some devil's advocacy. How would you feel about:

- a straight nation?
- a white nation?
- a black nation?
- a female nation?
- a male nation?

Are there models for these already, or historically? How about nations where the official religion is legislated and enforced?

Personally I am comfortable with these - all of these.

There is a natural process that takes place in the world. Take a major city and look at it. A process of ghetto-fication takes place where within the city people tend to separate into cultural/religious/racial "ghettos" or 'districts' (ghetto: Not in the negative sense) Thus we have little Italy, little China, Japan Town, and of course your GLBT district.

And yes Religion is legislated and enforced in Islamic Countries (as example). Where the law of the Talmud is also the law of the land.

There is a male nation -- the Vatican state. Women and children are only visitors. Nuns who work there commute from Rome. I wonder how that nation gets along? I'm thinking of Browning's Soliloquy of the Spanish Cloister.