What do you think about the school for gays? Will it help or hurt?
I think that they should take the money and teach the regular public schools to get over it and accept people for who and what they are. The kids in the gay school may be safe and unharassed while in classes 8 hours a day, but they still have to face every other hour in the general public. *************************************************** 07-29-03, 08:46 AM Georgia85 I heard about this on the radio driving home yesterday. I'm not to sure I am for it. Apparently the purpose of this school is to provide gays, lesbians, and transgenders a non-judgemental environment where they are free to get a better education than they would if they were in a public school. My concern is this...if they are sequestered like this - free from insults, ribbing, and the like...what sort of life will they have after school when they are forced to be in the "real" world?
The rest of us had to deal with taunts and bullies while we were in school...what makes them any more special? If they have their own school then nerds, geeks, and freaks should have their own school too.
07-29-03, 10:15 AM NCcichlid Sounds like segregation is rearing it's ugly head.
Segregation;
2 a : the separation or isolation of a race, class, or ethnic group by enforced or voluntary residence in a restricted area, by barriers to social intercourse, by separate educational facilities, or by other discriminatory means.
07-29-03, 10:16 AM Elexina I'm all for gay rights and equality and all that, but I feel like a separate high school for gays totally defeats the purpose. It just makes them more outcast, more of a target, not less. Everyone needs to learn acceptance and tolerance. We don't pull little Muslim kids out of class and put them in a special school just because the Christians mock them. We don't pull the little red-haired freckled step-children out just because brunettes make fun of them. This is not the way to accomplish the goal. We all need to learn to get along.
Gay rights activists have long clamored for rights with the slogan, "equal rights, not special rights." Well, this goes completely against that. And no, I don't think gay people should be given *special* rights. Not anymore than I think black people or poor people or smart people or short people or fat people should be given special rights. Just *equal* rights, that's all.
This is totally counterproductive. And silly.
07-29-03, 10:49 AM MkStfnz I wouldn't want to see the tax dollars in my community going to a school like this. Sheltering these students from those who disagree with their lifestyle is no excuse for special education rights. The only special rights for education that should exist are for those who cannot learn in an average educational setting -- those children who have learning disabilities.
07-29-03, 11:28 AM Kendor Homosexuality is directly adverse to the continuation of our species and should not be nurtured or embraced anywhere. We may accept it as a fact of life and tolerate it, but we should never make concessions in support of it
Don't get me wrong, I've had tendencies both ways but common sense tells me what is good for us, as a species, and what is not.
07-29-03, 11:34 AM MkStfnz
quote:
Originally posted by Kendor: Homosexuality is directly adverse to the continuation of our species and should not be nurtured or embraced anywhere. We may accept it as a fact of life and tolerate it, but we should never make concessions in support of it
A perfect answer.
07-29-03, 11:36 AM steve How can they spend tax money so foolishly when we still don't have a high school for blondes only?
07-29-03, 05:12 PM aminator2002 I don't think it's a bad idea if the kids are getting harrassed.
I am for it and I think it's absurd to say that homosexuality is wrong because it doesn't propagate the species... 6 billion is a pretty safe number...
the only real danger we face is going extinct due to excessive numbers...
GO GAYS!!!! We need a whole lot more of you to save the humans. Smile
07-29-03, 05:19 PM Yelena
quote:
Originally posted by Yankees15: I wonder what the mascot will be?
LMFAO!!!! Hahahaha.... Big Grin
As for me, it seems pretty stupid to try to say everything Elexina said when she's alread said it better. Smile
07-29-03, 07:04 PM dogspit Wow, I like the concept, anything which is not specifically geared for the continuation of the species should not be nurtured. First we can ban all magnet schools for performing arts and music (obviously they do nothing to promote effective procreation), the do away with all sports programs at school (replace them with reproductive activities), and of course auto shop would need to go (after all a car only needs be parked to procreate).
This kind of school likely could not exist except in the private schools, so I see no reason it shouldn't. It is not about nurturing homosexuality, it is about providing a safe, nurturing and productive environment for these young people to build their minds. You never know what potential any mind holds, and it seems best to make sure every student has the opportunity to get a quality education without the daily threat of violence.
Just remembered, gotta ban any of the seminaries and other religious schools which teach abstinence or even (heaven forbid) celibacy, as neither of these help humanity procreate either !
07-29-03, 07:25 PM Kendor
quote:
Originally posted by dogspit: Wow, I like the concept, anything which is not specifically geared for the continuation of the species should not be nurtured.
How can I be so misunderstood.
It's not that homosexuality "is not geared specifically for the continuation of the species...", but that it is geared specifically for the extinction of it. It's rudimentary, 6 billion or not.
Oh, and I agree with your statement, "...and it seems best to make sure every student has the opportunity to get a quality education without the daily threat of violence", but I doubt it best to start with homosexuals. There are millions of screaming kids out there.
[This message was edited by Kendor on 07-29-03 at 07:55 PM.]
07-29-03, 08:14 PM sonnet26 Kendor:
I don't recall ever being recruited to become an homosexual. Using your logic, you seem to be suggesting that, eventually, everyone is either going to, or the gay community is hoping that we all, become homosexual, for the express purpose of ending procreation. That doesn't make any sense to me, nor have I ever seen any evidence to support such a theory.
Which is beside the point, since this is a discussion of whether or not it is right to create a separate school for one class of people...not whether or not it is right to be a homosexual. That being the case, I totally agree that "segregation", whether voluntary, or involuntary, is NOT a good idea. For the same reasons stated by kittypal, Georgia, Elexina, NC Cichlid, MkStfnz (his first answer, only), dog and steve.
Segregation was abolished, legally, in...1964? Isolating a class of people leaves them unprepared to deal with society.
Of course, these are just MY opinions.
07-29-03, 08:32 PM honilov A Gay high school? This is crazy. Why would gay kids be segregated? In the first place, how do they know who is gay? If these kids are in school to learn and be educated, there's no time to be trying to find out who's gay or straight. If the kids are hugging and kissing, making it obvious, then that kind of behavior should be banned at school. There's plenty of time for that after school, when they are alone or with other friends that are gay.
If a gay person is being picked on, there is a thing called...IGNORE.
07-30-03, 02:17 AM SeattleRon why not bring back black and white schools then? I have to agree with most of you on this. Just accept who people are and get over it. If you get harassed tell somebody about it. Bullies are often immature people who have a problem with their own self esteem, so in order to feel good about themselves. They have to put others down. A homosexual only school is a terrible idea.
07-30-03, 06:10 AM cyberlaol This idea of a gay high school is stupid and I agree with a lot of the posts which say that why not have black and white schools only-you know separate schools for distinctly different people I say lets have a school for Born Again Catholics now poetic Mennonites who like slow dancing and have a wild sense of humor and who also believe in marriage between a man and a woman-yeah I know what you're thinking- I'd get picked on by some bullies somewhere-of course my being Irish that would last about 5 seconds
LOL Razz 07-30-03, 08:19 AM MkStfnz Dogspit, our tax dollars don't go to fund the seminaries. New Yorkers' tax dollars will go to fund this school. There is an enormous difference. The idea isn't that schools should promote procreation, but they shouldn't make special accomodations for a lifestyle which so directly opposes procreation.
07-30-03, 08:45 AM aminator2002 I just want to bring up that when the subject of bullying came up in an earlier discussion room post, there were no comments saying:
"They need to learn to deal with the real world"
"They should ignore it"
Gay kids are just kids. Give them a break.
This is not about people exploring their sexuality in school, but about not being harrassed because of their sexuality. I don't think there is a person here that can say they didn't witness cruelity to a gay (or seemingly gay) kid in school.
And the 6 billion people thing is very significant and the argument against it is truly lame. There is no threat to the human species due to homosexuality.
07-30-03, 09:04 AM Elexina Kendor, homosexuality is the perfect answer to overpopulation. It might be exactly what the species needs at this point. More people NOT having children is a GOOD thing -especially when so many of the people who DO have children have like EIGHT of them and then WE have to support them all.
Yankees: Big Gay Al? Bert and Ernie? Those penguins?
If such a school were to exist, it should be a private facility, not public. Public schools are supposed to treat everyone equally and teach tolerance and acceptance of all peoples. If this is *not* happening, then action needs to be taken at that school. Taking a bunch of gay kids and putting them away in some school together does not make the world a better place, and it only makes these kids a bigger target. No more having to guess and hunt for gays to bash, they'll all be in one place!
07-30-03, 01:10 PM Georgia85 Excuse me folks but where did you all get the idea that homosexuality would end over population? First of all - it has absolutely nothing to do with the initial post...and secondly have none of you ever heard of monogomous long termed homosexual relationships? Both gays and lesbians in these relationships enjoy creating a family - inclusive of children - just like heterosexuals. They go to great lengths to find surrogate mothers who will provide them with children. True, some adopt but the opportunity for same sex couples to adopt is not readily available in many states.
I'll get off my soapbox now - but I just couldn't watch this post progress with the generalization about homosexuality reducing the population. In theory - yes, in reality - not so much.
07-30-03, 02:49 PM Kendor Gay High School No one said that homosexuality will absolutely end human existence. I merely stated earlier that it, (homosexuality), is directly adverse to the continuation of our species. It doesn't matter how far-fetched or ridiculous it sounds, (or actually is), no one can disagree with that statement, or logically put it aside for any reason.
How can I explain?.......EARTHWORMS! Humans naturally reproduce sexually, earthworms asexually. Suppose a rising number of earthworms began to form without centromeres in their cells. (Centromeres play a key role in the worm's asexual reproduction). And suppose the whole of the rest of earthworm society embraced this mutation, and supported and encouraged it, finding ways to further its progress. Guess what? No more earthworms. Yes, it may take several million years but as long as the mutation is nourished it will eventually become dominant.
It is more likely that the change would die out quickly, as, fundamentally, the effected nematodes cannot reproduce and send this gene on. The other earthworms would in reality show no support of it because they instinctually know it is detrimental to their continuation, no matter how unlikely it is to happen, or how far in the future extinction would take place.
Put another way: (going out on a limb here, and doing so hypothetically) "My mom wants to fly to Egypt on a commercial flight. She wants to carry a gun. My mom is an angel; wouldn't hurt a fly. But will the airlines tolerate her armament, even if they KNOW she won't hurt anyone? Heck no because that is directly adverse to the safety of the flight. No concessions will be made in light of that." (Show some respect please, my mom is actually long passed)
07-30-03, 03:02 PM methos Kendor:
1) a)Why do you say the earthworm mutation would become dominant? Just because it is not squashed out doesn't mean that it will become dominant. It just doesn't follow. In fact, the entire issue of a dominant trait requires that it can be passed on, which you seem to be sayign it can't be. If it can be, then the mutated worms can obviously reproduce, so there is no threat to the species. b)No one is trying to turn heterosexuals into homosexuals.
2) There's a HUGE difference between an action/orientation that simply doesn't produce life (homosexuality), or even one that prevents life from being produced (abstinence, condoms), and one that actively removes life (a gun).
As to the original question, I think it's a dumb idea.
07-30-03, 05:12 PM Kendor I'm sorry methos, in a last-ditch attempt to get my simple little point across, I seem to have confused even myself here. I'm certainly no expert, in any field, and furthest from biology. Being the intellect that you are, you must surely see what I am trying to say. Perhaps you can put it into some more easily understood verbiage, (as I attempted with mom and her gun).
Honestly, I've nothing against homosexual behavior. I accept that it is here to stay and I deal with it. It simply isn't logical to promote it, that's all.
07-30-03, 05:51 PM Jelp01 I don't like the idea of a gay high school. I know that gays do get harrassed. I never saw any of it in my high school, though, because A) Our high school was tiny, 100 in four grades B) There were no gay students, at least none who were openly gay. There were a couple who did turn out to be gay, but since they were star female athletes, and our school has had a very long history of athletic success, no one would have bothered them anyway.
I thought the idea behind busing in the '60s and '70s was to end segregation. Now we're going to start it again??
Bad idea.
07-30-03, 10:29 PM aminator2002 I don't think anyone will come up with a logical analogy Kendor... you are trying to make what is purely a moral issue into some kind of evolutionary imperative. Or in a simpler way you are trying to say that biologically it doesn't make sense to promote homosexuality because it will hurt the human race. Here are some basic problems with trying to do that:
1. No one is promoting homosexuality. 2. How would we ever know that something would be harmful to the human race? It might end up being just the perfect thing to save us all... who the heck could know. 3. If I take any part of your argument one step further I get "we should discourage it" and therefore you are promoting harrassment of gays.
There's not much anyone can say to you if you say that you think homosexuality is wrong... but please don't try to make it rational or logical... it will never be either.
07-31-03, 09:56 AM Kendor Aminator: "1. No one is promoting homosexuality." Kendor: "Then what is this thread about?"
Aminator: "2. How would we ever know that something would be harmful to the human race? It might end up being just the perfect thing to save us all... who the heck could know." Kendor: "Logic tells us. Mkstfnz understands."
Aminator: "3. If I take any part of your argument one step further I get "we should discourage it" and therefore you are promoting harassment of gays." Kendor: "Please don't extend my thoughts or put words in my mouth. Not once did I imply discouragement of homosexuality or promote harassment of gays. You don't even know my own personal sexual orientation."
One last thought: As I said, logic dictates the social adversity of homosexuality, yet I, as much as the next guy, will admit that logic is not always 'spot on'. But until any proof, or at least a strong indication that homosexuality is actually beneficial to the human race, I will stick to my guns because I know their riflings are true.
08-01-03, 09:28 AM aminator2002 Kendor...
This thread is about a proposed high school for gay students. The idea behind the high school is that gay students have a right to an environment suitable for learning just like hetero students. The premise is that gay kids get harassed and treated poorly... this has not been disputed by anyone in the thread. It is not to go out and make people gay i.e. Promoting gayness.
I don't give a hoot what Mkstfnz understands... I think you are wrong and you think I am wrong. You say that things are unnatural but humans are part of nature and therefore their acts can not be deemed unnatural. Your logic in all of your arguments is flawed.
I extend paths of logic to give myself the extremes that they could be taken to. This is not something I did to you personally, but something I do to reason things out. If you take a step back I believe you will see that if something is wrong and shouldn't be encouraged then of course it is acceptable to discourage it. Your idea that to be gay is against nature and anti-social and an affront to human existence because it doesn't serve to propagate the species is wrong headed... I don't mean this as a personal attack, I just think you need to think about it some more.
I don't know your sexual orientation and don't want to. If you are gay then you really should go think about this and let your mind be at greater peace about gays, nature and the world.
The logic is flawed... it isn't just not "spot-on"... it is wrong. Having people be free and happy to live life as they see fit is beneficial to the human race. Fighting against what is obviously human nature is bad.
Since homosexuality has existed in humans for thousands of years, it is human nature.
Furthermore, since repeated efforts have been made to try and change homosexual behavior and those efforts have failed miserably; it must be true that it is not a "condition" or a behavioral choice but a part of human nature.
08-01-03, 08:41 PM gatman
quote:
Originally posted by Kendor: Homosexuality....should not be nurtured or embraced anywhere. We may accept it as a fact of life and tolerate it, but we should never make concessions in support of it.
___That is my bottom line on gays, Don't ask. Don't tell. Don't promote. A special school does promote by giving special recognition. Also it is segregation but some people can be so adept at making pretzels of logic to support a position.
___Sonnet I have been approached more often by homos seeking a "friend" than I care to remember. Do I look gay or what? (talk about inviting insults here Roll Eyes) I'm not into cars or sports nor do I laugh at a lot of jokes and stories about mistreating females. Guess that may make me less of a man.
Quote Ami: "I just want to bring up that when the subject of bullying came up in an earlier discussion room post, there were no comments saying: "They need to learn to deal with the real world" "They should ignore it"
___Neither do I recall any comments saying there should be a special school for the bullied. The bullies should be dealt with. The same for gay bashers. Argueing against a deviant lifestyle choice is not bashing.
"Since homosexuality has existed in humans for thousands of years, it is human nature."
___So too has child molesting, murder, burglery, etc etc etc. Why even BULLYING is just human nature. So you think we should not discourage any of this too right? After all repeated atempts to change all these human nature behavior patterns have failed miserably.
"I extend paths of logic to give myself the extremes that they could be taken to."
___Did you do this on gay marriages being legalized also? Or do your paths only head left? I don't mean this as a personal attack Ami. Just pointing out the flaws of logic typical in liberal mindsets. No standards. No limits. No consistancy.
08-03-03, 11:12 AM MkStfnz
quote:
Originally posted by aminator2002:
You say that things are unnatural but humans are part of nature and therefore their acts can not be deemed unnatural.
quote:
Originally posted by aminator2002:
Since homosexuality has existed in humans for thousands of years, it is human nature.
Psychopathic behavior has existed in humans for thousands of years also. Does that make it natural? Should we just ignore the problems pshchopathic behavior causes because it is natural?
Of course, that was a dramatization. However, my point remains the same. Just because a human behavior occurs, it doesn't make it natural. Often, the behavior is a problem (ex. homosexual behavior). All human acts are not natural as you have stated.
This is not an excuse to make special concessions by creating a gay high school.
08-03-03, 01:37 PM aminator2002 Yep... it's all natural and even people who are resistant to change are natural.
The difference between a pychopath and a homosexual is that one is dangerous and one isn't. Both are natural and both are human.
I'm done... you think what you want.
08-03-03, 06:49 PM IamTWP I can't say that I like the idea the idea of a public scool for gays. I understand that what they are aiming for is a safe learning environment, but people are victimized every day for infinite reasons. Why are we only out to protect the gay? We ALL need to go through life interacting with people, people who may or may not agree with our lifestyles or ideals. We need to learn to live together. Segregation is not the answer. Segregation in public schools was outlawed in 1954 in the Supreme Court Case Brown v. the Board of Education of Topeka, KS. In the year 2003, I do not believe we ought to reinstate it. Everyone is subject to victimization in some way. I myself, in my freshman year, was victimized by a group of students because of my faith. Although I was never physically harmed, I WAS threatened physically, and did suffer emotionally and socially. Did they target me just because I am a Christian? No. They targeted me because I am an OUTSPOKEN Christian. Had I not stood up for my faith, I would not have been targeted. But I made the choice to display my faith, and for that, I suffered, but that was the decision I made. I don't believe people are victimized just for being who they are, but for proclaiming it, and making it very apparent before people. If people are going to flaunt the fact that they are gay, they need to be prepared to face the people who have a problem with that. Funding a public school to segregate gays from the rest of the school system is not the answer, rather, encouraging tolerance may be.
08-04-03, 07:46 AM MkStfnz What exactly do you mean when you use the word tolerance?
08-04-03, 08:00 AM puppyblues Kitty, are you referring to the school that is already 'up and running'? I've seen a lot about it on TV. I know they are having problem with funding and there are very few students there. When I saw a documentary on it, the kids themselves really didn't seem happy. They came from all over the country to go to this paticular school, but still, something is missing for them. I also think segregating them is wrong. I want them to get a good education and feel secure in their schools, but what about when they do go out in the real world? They won't make the work places 'for gays only'. They need to face these things and learn to deal with them while they are young.
Really, I don't think anyone wins here. Frown
08-04-03, 08:05 AM Yelena Wait a second, if were talking about segregation, segregation already exists. There are already private school, all girls school, all boys schools, Mensa, Catholic schools, Boy Scouts (for only hetrosexual males), Girl Scouts, ect, ect. How is a gay school any different?
08-04-03, 08:08 AM puppyblues VERY good point, Yelena.
08-04-03, 08:47 AM MkStfnz Puppyblues and Yelena...
Private schools are funded by certain benefactors (ex. alumni, tuition, etc.). All girls/all boys schools often are private schools. Catholic schools are funded by the Catholic church. The Boy/Girl Scouts are not even schools. All of these schools are not funded by the taxpayers.
This new gay high school is funded by the taxpayers. There's the difference.
The only students who should have special accomodations made for them by the taxpayers are disabled students who need special assistance in order to function properly in the classroom.
08-04-03, 12:52 PM Yelena Are you sure about this? I read that it was privatly funded.
08-04-03, 01:25 PM methos I think there's a bit of confusion here. Not everyone seems to be talking about the same school.
This school existed as a very small, privately funded two-classroom school. It will open, in a new building with a larger student body, in a few weeks. It is partially (it seems mostly, but reports are a little vague on that) privately funded and partially publically funded.
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