The Canadians spend $3800 per capita for health care. The United States spends $5440 per capita, yet everyone is covered in Canada while 35 million Americans are without health care coverage. Life expectany in Canada is 79.69 years versus 77.4 years in the U.S. It costs the United States 13.9 percent of GDP, Canada 9.1 percent of GDP. Infant mortality rates are lower in Canada than in the U.S. Are we doing something wrong??

The Canadian health system is a mess. Over the past few years there have been nurses' strikes, doctors' sick-outs, and a steady stream of both heading to the US. In some provinces non-critical surgeries are non-existant, so give up hoping about the hip replacement or deviated septum. In Toronto hospitals have closed and ERs are packed because there are no beds.

quote:

---

Originally posted by juanruiz:
The Canadian health system is a mess. Over the past few years there have been nurses' strikes, doctors' sick-outs, and a steady stream of both heading to the US. In some provinces non-critical surgeries are non-existant, so give up hoping about the hip replacement or deviated septum. In Toronto hospitals have closed and ERs are packed because there are no beds.

---

And you don't think the U.S system is a mess, and an expensive one that leaves millions without any coverage? How about some facts and figures, some evidence besides your personal opinion?? My brother , nieces, nephews, and in-laws living in Canada report differently.

I work for a major automobile manufacturer in North America. I travel often to our plant in Canada where the workers there make great money, and enjoy many of the company benefits that I do. But one thing our company doesn't provide for them is health care as the Canadian government already does. I've not spoken to one employee there that wouldn't love to move to the US. I am told that the quality of an individual's health care in Canada is directly related to his/her income, and even then somewhat inadequate. And the taxes purportedly consume nearly half of their gross income.

While we vacationed in Canada this summer, we especially asked Canadians if they were happy with their health care. Surprisingly to me, nine out of ten responded that "yes, their taxes were high, but that they were pretty content because of their health package. The only real downside that we heard was that the doctors hit their "ceiling" on their salary about November, and aren't too available till the next year--so that it's best to schedule your surgery anytime except late November thru the first of January.

Well, I haven't needed to use the health care while vacationing (knock on wood) but 2 years ago, while vacationing in Nova Scotia the nurses were all on strike. That really makes a mess of the way a hospital runs. It takes some pretty bad conditions for nurses to strike.

Actually, the health care system is one of the few reasons we haven't moved to canada.

If the cost per capita is $1600 less per year in Canada than in the U.S, the high taxes must be due to something other than universal health coverage ?? I don't know of any country where the citizens don't gripe about high taxes. But how high are Canadian taxes and who pays whaat?? We hear from Spain and the United States, can't we have some actual figures from actual Canadians??
France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the UK, Switzerland all manage to cover all of their citizens at less cost than we do. I don't know how good or how bad it is but I suspect we may be victims of our own propaganda/advertising. "Ask your doctor if ***is right for you" (fill in the *** with Detrol, Nexium, Viagra, Plavix, Levitra, Celebrex, etc.How many millions do the Insurance companies spend to lobby against health care reform, etc.???

[This message was edited by frankvan on 01-12-04 at 10:51 AM.]

FrankVan,

Taxes are much higher in Canada. This includes income tax, taxes on cigarettes and liquor, and General (i.e., national) and Provincial sales taxes which can, combined, run as high as 15% or more.

Juan, I'll take your word for it that taxes are higher in Canada, but how does that square with the fact that a much smaller percentage of GDP goes for health care costs? Doesn't that mean that the health care system is not to blame for the higher taxes?

I haven't yet read everything in the link you provided, but so far I haven't seen anything that isnt based on 4 year old discussions, minor objections and proposed remedies, etc. Nothing, in short that couldn't have been corrected or might apply to one province as compared to another. I find our own system to be a mish mash of complexity that leaves some 40 million at the mercy of the pharmaceutical and insurance industries, so if there is a better alternative, whether it turns out to be based on the Canadian, German, Italian, or any other system, I would like to know about it.

My own experience and exposure to the Canadian health care system is similar to Kelleygirl's. It is based on people, including family, in Quebec and Ontario. On the whole, although they often gripe about many things, they wouldn't give up their coverage for the hodge-podge of the free market. In short, while Dick Gephardt is proposing some sort of universal health care coverage, and most of us would welcome some simplification of our current system, I would like to get something more persuasive than the anecdotal snap judgements too easily attributable to the advertising to improve profitability of vested interests. I value your opinion, but I would like to be more convinced than I am 'til now.

Frankly, medicine is a service & product-oriented field. Choose to use it or choose not to. It's the customer's choice. There's no one twisting your arm, forcing you to take medication, visit the dentist, wear glasses or to have bone-marrow transplants. It's YOUR choice!!!
Doctors, pharmaceutical companies, etc. are out to profit like the rest of us. Don't chastise them simply because they're offering you health and life rather than a Big Mac with an order of Super-sized fries.
Personally, I see nothing wrong with the Capitalist approach to health care. What has destroyed the realistic cost factor is probably the Insurance companies and those who choose to sue for malpractice to the song of trillions of dollars per year.
Personally, I find our medical costs to be quite reasonable when taking into consideration what I am actually paying for.
If people would stop abusing the health-care system, clogging up emergency rooms and practitioners' offices with scrapes, cuts, sniffles and such, perhaps medical costs could be kept more reasonbable.
It amazes me how much more often people who have insurance visit the doctor than those without it.

I guess the bottom line is that in the United States, a medical degree is an investment in one's future. In Canada, it seems to be more of a social contribution.


Mr(it hurts when I do this)Sensitive

Just last night CBC TV ran a story on The Queen Elizabeth II hospital in Halifax. Waiting time in its ER is 16 hours. There are no beds available. Staff are asked to perform responsibilities for which they are not qualified. This is symptomatic of much of the Canadian Health system.

quote:

---

Originally posted by MrSensitive: In Canada, it seems to be more of a social contribution.

---

More and more it means moving to the US where government bureaucrats do not dictate your salary, and you are replaced by someone from South Africa.